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  1. #1
    Registered User yomama2's Avatar
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    Best ways to gain muscle AND lose fat at the same time?

    So basic stats: 6'3", 245lbs, 37" waist (almost 36", but still tight when wearing 36" pants). I've been doing various workout routines over the past 8 weeks, skipping almost the entire week 2 due to various reasons, so 6 weeks in a row. My fat stores primarily in my mid gut (thanks to years of boozing), with secondary stores in chest and inner thighs... all other bodyfat is not abnormally noticable and smooth/even. So basically, I really want to burn enough calories to lose the pooch (luckily lower back and love handles are not stores for me), as the chest and thighs will take care of themselves long before my belly is flat.

    On the other hand, my arms are in the neighborhood of 12-13", my standard bench is STILL limited to 5sets, 8 reps of 85lbs (you wouldn't believe what I started with 8 weeks ago if I told you, using dumbbells instead of the bar), and I can only chin-up 120lbs and dip 80lbs on the lat pulldown and assisted dip machines, respectively. Suffice it to say, my upper body is WEAK at present, but this is changing and will continue to change. Legs and back are less of a concern just because I use both in my work and can squat 185lbs in a cybex and deadlift 135lbs (grip limited, not leg/back limited).

    To improve muscle mass, I'm trying to cram 1:1 carbrotein ratio up to bodyweight in my system every day while keeping caloric intake at or under 2000 to lose body fat. Suffice it to say, even with proper diet, food pyramid, bars and shakes, and tons of fish and eggwhites, it is HARD to get 225g of protein without going over 2000 calories every day.

    I recently changed to HIIT cardio instead of what I was doing before, which was walking 4 miles in an hour 6 days a week. I'm worried that this combined with 5 small meals a day will cause my calorie in to calorie out ratio to get high enough that I'll stop losing bodyfat but will build muscle mass faster.

    I've stopped drinking alcohol and beer completely, and drink water instead of soda and occasionally splurge with a diet soda or 100% fruit juice on days that I haven't eaten enough raw fruit.

    BUT, I still smoke about 1/2 a pack a day... Yes, I know ALLLLLLLLLL the health issues, but I'm trying to change permanently, not binge on workout, diet, and supplements, then revert to lazy party slob. When I get used to working out every day, eating healthy food, and not drinking, then I'll consider dropping smoking for health reasons, but right now my inspiration is vanity, not health.

    So, what's the best workout routine to help me lose fat without losing muscle mass in the process? Should I go back to sustained calorie burns with hours of walking or cycling, or should I stick to the HIIT on elliptical or bike machine? Will doing cardio on weight days BEFORE weights (not including warmup) significantly slow my muscle gains, or should I just do cardio on my 3 off days? Or... can I still do cardio on weight days but have to do it after weights? Should I add more carbs even though I'm trying to lose fat? Should I stop worrying so much about calories as long as I eat "clean" foods? Do I need any supplements other than multi-vitamin, protein shake mix, and ECA stack?

    ANY responses will be very appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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    Training Hard Andalite's Avatar
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    checkout my journal...i think thats what i'm doing...i mean, i'm trying to bulk+cut simultaneously using HST and cardio...but at the same time i am aiming for strength as well

    best of luck

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    Registered User smooth9825's Avatar
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    there are pretty much only 3 ways to bulk and cut at the same time:


    1. You have been training less than 6 months

    2. Your on Steroids

    3. Your obese




    if you dont fall in one of those categories, your gonna have to pick which one you want more.
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    Originally Posted by Andalite
    checkout my journal...i think thats what i'm doing...i mean, i'm trying to bulk+cut simultaneously using HST and cardio...but at the same time i am aiming for strength as well

    best of luck

    Andalite
    You can't bulk, cut at the same time... What you can do is gain muscle without gaining much fat. With doing that because your weight is going up with muscle, your BF % will go down. But this is generally the wrong thing to do. For OPTIMAL results, you should bulk, then cut. If you ever want a big physique, that is diced, you have to face and cope with the fact that you are going to be chubby/fat for a period of time.
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    Registered User yomama2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smooth9825
    there are pretty much only 3 ways to bulk and cut at the same time:


    1. You have been training less than 6 months

    2. Your on Steroids

    3. Your obese




    if you dont fall in one of those categories, your gonna have to pick which one you want more.
    1. Yup, only been training 8 weeks so far.

    2. Nope, and my girlfriend doesn't even want me on an ECA stack.

    3. I think I may fit the technical terminology for obese, but I think you just mean fatasses, of which I am not in this case.

    I just got back from the gym, and my close-grip bench went up to 95lbs today, and I didn't fail any of my 3 sets (although I would've failed another 2 reps). Yay!
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  6. #6
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    Since you say you're overweight this may not apply to you, but often people use the term 'bulk' when it is not the correct one. To me bulking is taking in many more calories than you normally would and lifting heavy in the hope of putting on weight more quickly than normal and understanding you will put on a certain amount of fat you will then have to 'cut'. So it is true that it is impossible to both 'bulk' and 'cut'.
    However.
    You can lose fat and gain muscle. One of the most important factors though, is patience. I came off a layoff with the intention of getting back to 170 from 160, and then up to 180. I could do this easily enough by bulking, but being summer I have no desire to carry a bunch of fat. So I am taking my damn time. I am using a powerlifting style program to re-establish my former core strength and then I will switch it up to continue. In six weeks I have gone from 160-165 will losing fat. In time I will achieve my goal.
    We all spend a lot of time learning about nutrition, training, etc. I think one of the most valuable lessons a lot of people need to learn is patience, because I see a lot of people trying to do it 'right now' and the only thing they're rushing to is failure.
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    Hey mate noone seems to have answered your exact questions directly so hopefully I can help with that-
    You asked about whether to do bike or walking for your cardio- either is fine- do the one that you find more enjoyable. In fact if you want an excellent cardiovascular workout do the olympic movements with light weights. These are the snatch, clean and jerk and also you can do the clean and press. You will have to get someone to show you how to do them. Doing 10 reps of a clean and press in a row will make you feel like you you've just run 4 miles And its extremely fun doing the olympic movements as opposed to a treadmill.

    You asked about doing the cardio before your weights training- in my humble opinion if you do this you will burn calories for sure but your weight training will lag behind because you'll be too tired to do it. I would suggest doing it on the days you dont weight train.

    You asked about eating more carbs- yes I think you need to. 2000 calories is not enough my friend. With your height and weight you should be getting at least 2500 I reckon. Eat 5 small meals a day to speed your metabolism up. If you don't get enough calories your body will think its starving and start trying to store the food as fat for later on.
    You also asked about eating clean but eating a lot of it- eat clean definately but anything eaten in huge amounts isnt good for you. Just eat clean to get the 2500 calories i mentioned.
    Supplements- don't worry about that atm- when you've been training for a couple of years then start worrying about supplements. Get off the ECA stack you dont need it. My reasoning behind this is atm your body will respond no matter what you do to it and you'll be wasting your money buying supplements.
    That answers all your direct questions. Also make sure you give up the smoking as soon as you can and I don't have to give any reason for that.
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    supersets could work
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    Originally Posted by olympic
    Hey mate noone seems to have answered your exact questions directly so hopefully I can help with that-
    You asked about whether to do bike or walking for your cardio- either is fine- do the one that you find more enjoyable. In fact if you want an excellent cardiovascular workout do the olympic movements with light weights. These are the snatch, clean and jerk and also you can do the clean and press. You will have to get someone to show you how to do them. Doing 10 reps of a clean and press in a row will make you feel like you you've just run 4 miles And its extremely fun doing the olympic movements as opposed to a treadmill.

    You asked about doing the cardio before your weights training- in my humble opinion if you do this you will burn calories for sure but your weight training will lag behind because you'll be too tired to do it. I would suggest doing it on the days you dont weight train.

    You asked about eating more carbs- yes I think you need to. 2000 calories is not enough my friend. With your height and weight you should be getting at least 2500 I reckon. Eat 5 small meals a day to speed your metabolism up. If you don't get enough calories your body will think its starving and start trying to store the food as fat for later on.
    You also asked about eating clean but eating a lot of it- eat clean definately but anything eaten in huge amounts isnt good for you. Just eat clean to get the 2500 calories i mentioned.
    Supplements- don't worry about that atm- when you've been training for a couple of years then start worrying about supplements. Get off the ECA stack you dont need it. My reasoning behind this is atm your body will respond no matter what you do to it and you'll be wasting your money buying supplements.
    That answers all your direct questions. Also make sure you give up the smoking as soon as you can and I don't have to give any reason for that.
    Okay, well I've just switched workouts a week ago from one a friend suggested (very basic upper day, lower day, off, repeat) to the most recent MF mag workout, supposedly the "t-shirt body" workout, so the cardio question mainly stems from switching up from a true 80% HR hour-long cardio session to intervals that only take from 18-34 minutes to complete, 30 seconds at max and 90 seconds at about 80% HR... so basically, I find it easier to use the treadmill for fast continuous walking, but find the cycle easier to "self-adjust" every 2 minutes for interval training, even with a moderate resistance setting.

    Also, my current workout includes hanging cleans and presses which I usually do as push-presses to get more weight. Plus even though jerks look cool, I don't think my upper body stabilizer muscles can handle them yet unless I want to fall over into a rack of weights, but I suppose practicing them with warm-up weight would help me master the form before trying to add weight to them. Snatches look really cool though for your back, I'll have to give them a whirl on a "light" workout day.

    As for the 2500 calories, I think I'm approaching that now anyway since its near impossible to eat 5 small meals without racking up the calories... I need to find some more complex carbs that I can eat as snacks and replace my low carb shakes with a more typical protein shake that doesn't have a stupid atkins "A" on the front of it.

    And don't worry about the ECA stack, I haven't bought it yet... just wanted some opinions and I already know you're right... my body doesn't need any additional stimulation other than change in diet and exercise/training right now. I have my multi-vitamin and protein supplements, and I'm sure those are enough for a beginner.

    I figure when my cardio stops progressing or I hit my first plateau, smoking will be the easiest vice to change, so I'll probably quit it then, but I'm keeping it as my crutch and stress-relief for now until the workout takes that job.

    Thanks to everyone for all the answers and suggestions.
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  10. #10
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    I see these posts all the time, it just doesnt make sense to me people, its been shown time and time again that bulking and cutting is the most effective way to gain muscle. but if you have a couple years to spend then by all means
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    Originally Posted by latrell
    You can't bulk, cut at the same time... What you can do is gain muscle without gaining much fat. With doing that because your weight is going up with muscle, your BF % will go down. But this is generally the wrong thing to do. For OPTIMAL results, you should bulk, then cut. If you ever want a big physique, that is diced, you have to face and cope with the fact that you are going to be chubby/fat for a period of time.
    when i did OVT, i went from 160 lbs w/ 20% bf to 170 lbs w/ 17% bf......

    also. your statemtn about bulking and cutting cycles is incorrect....have a look at DC Training..ppl bulk+cut on that....and there's nothing non-OPTIMAL about DC Training...

    basically, cutting / bulking depends on diet....so you can cut+bulk simultaneosly depending on what your feeding your body with..

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    I'm a little confused based on your bio. I'm 6'1, 160, with a little over 13 inch arms (cold). How much of your weight if fat? Do you happen to know what your body fat % is?

    If it's as high as I am picturing, I recommend, doing split workouts throughout the day (exercise in morning and evening). Do you have time for that? For example, if you don't want to lose strength, and want to continue to lose weight, I'd recommend the following (if you have time):

    -Weight traininging: Two Day Split (Day 1, one day off, Day 2, two days off, Day 1, etc)
    ------------Day 1: Lat-Pull Downs, Bench Press, Bent Over Rows, Incline Dumbell Press, DeadLifts.
    ------------Day 2: Squats, Dumbell Shoulder Press, Shrugs, One Bicep, One Tricep exercise.

    -Whenever you have about 45 minutes to spare, 3 times a week, that is when you do the lifting (preferably you'd do this in the afternoon sometime)

    -Cardio: Do this 5 - 6 days a week (preferably in the morning)
    ------------30-40 Minutes on an Elliptical, Swimming, Jogging, Treadmill, whatever you prefer, and aim for a heart rate between 120 and 130. After cardio, do some ab work for 15 minutes.

    If you can pull that off, you'll drop weight quickly, and increase your muscle strength at the same time.

    Also, don't worry about getting 225 grams of protein, you have a lot of extra weight on you right now, so try to guess at how much you'd weigh if you had like 8 % body fat, and get THAT much protein. Keep the carb intake to a minimum, don't eat 2 hours before going to bed, and drink TONS of water.
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    Originally Posted by deadaim
    I see these posts all the time, it just doesnt make sense to me people, its been shown time and time again that bulking and cutting is the most effective way to gain muscle. but if you have a couple years to spend then by all means
    he is already "bulked" - he is 245 lbs with 12" arms. He has plenty of body mass that can be used to build muscle.

    Just keep exercising and eating healthy you will lose fat and get bigger, stronger. Just don't quit!
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    Originally Posted by Andalite
    when i did OVT, i went from 160 lbs w/ 20% bf to 170 lbs w/ 17% bf......

    also. your statemtn about bulking and cutting cycles is incorrect....have a look at DC Training..ppl bulk+cut on that....and there's nothing non-OPTIMAL about DC Training...

    basically, cutting / bulking depends on diet....so you can cut+bulk simultaneosly depending on what your feeding your body with..

    Andalite

    well, body fat percentages dont tell you whether or not you have put fat on. If your 160 lbs with 20 lbs of fat, and you bulk to 200 lbs and gain 5 pounds of fat, your bf% will drop, but you still put on fat.


    any program can be used for bulking and cutting, and its recommended that you use the same program that you used for bulking for cutting, but its not possible for a the average weight lifter to lose fat and put on muscle at the same time.



    Also, how long have you been training?
    190 lbs
    5'11"


    Currently:cutting
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    I don't have any experience with this, BUT, Iron Addict does. Here's an article from his site. I've quoted the first bit.

    Originally Posted by Iron Addict
    Timed carb Dieting

    Most of the people that come to me seeking personal training advice have their number one priority listed as dropping bodyfat. And when I say most, I am talking about 75-80%. The sad part is a big percentage of those people were NOT fat when they started bodybuilding. Yes, they got that way trying to “bulk up”. I guess you can say they were successful at “bulking” if you consider fat to be “bulk”. What they should have been doing is “muscling up”. That is rarely done until the trainee is quite experienced. The yo-yo approach can work well if you are blessed with a great metabolism……few are. Had they done it right they wouldn’t be in that situation. But, past mistakes are best left in the past. This article is about how to leave those mistakes in the past where they belong, and give you some general guidelines about timed-carb dieting, which I FIRMELY believe is the best approach to dropping the bodyfat while at a bare minimum retaining 100% of your muscle mass, and in the VAST majority of cases, adding some muscle and lots of strength while shedding the unwanted fat.
    Here's the link.
    http://www.ironaddicts.com/timed%20carb.html?t=1761
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    Originally Posted by Andalite
    when i did OVT, i went from 160 lbs w/ 20% bf to 170 lbs w/ 17% bf......

    also. your statemtn about bulking and cutting cycles is incorrect....have a look at DC Training..ppl bulk+cut on that....and there's nothing non-OPTIMAL about DC Training...

    basically, cutting / bulking depends on diet....so you can cut+bulk simultaneosly depending on what your feeding your body with..

    Andalite
    nop my statement is correct. sure you can gain muscle and lose fat, but that's called clean bulking, not bulking and cutting. Bulking means the process of getting big which includes muscle and fat, when you cut you cut the fat and a very little amount of muscle. you can't bulk cut, period.

    You probably haven't understood the concept of bodybuilding yet.. In order to become big, you have to face being fat for a period of time. When you are bulking you have to eat tons so you gain muscle, and of course fat. Then once you have hit some sort of plateau or you feel you are ready to cut down, then you cut. Why would you want to slowly progress in gaining a little muscle and losing a little fat, when the bulk then cut is simpily the way to go. There's no easy way out of it.
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    Originally Posted by latrell
    nop my statement is correct. sure you can gain muscle and lose fat, but that's called clean bulking, not bulking and cutting. Bulking means the process of getting big which includes muscle and fat, when you cut you cut the fat and a very little amount of muscle. you can't bulk cut, period.

    You probably haven't understood the concept of bodybuilding yet.. In order to become big, you have to face being fat for a period of time. When you are bulking you have to eat tons so you gain muscle, and of course fat. Then once you have hit some sort of plateau or you feel you are ready to cut down, then you cut. Why would you want to slowly progress in gaining a little muscle and losing a little fat, when the bulk then cut is simpily the way to go. There's no easy way out of it.
    ohhhh

    ok, so i;m getting most of what your saying latrell...but tell me, how would you explain this:

    when i began weightlifting in 2004, i was 5'7 @ 160 lb w/ 34.3% body fat.....before i began OVT (in jan), 2 years later, i was 5'7 @ 160 lbs w/ 20% bf.....now, how the hell did that happen???

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    Registered User latrell's Avatar
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    5 7 160lb 34% bf is outrageous. That is simpily impossible Andalite. Sorry but that is impossible, really. Maybe you didn't know how to measure bf. 5 7 160 at the MOST is 18-21 percent.
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    Originally Posted by latrell
    5 7 160lb 34% bf is outrageous. That is simpily impossible Andalite. Sorry but that is impossible, really. Maybe you didn't know how to measure bf. 5 7 160 at the MOST is 18-21 percent.
    no...

    i was 75 kgs = 165 lbs (sorry, just did the math)...and yes, i was FAT....and i was 34.3%....

    i think the test is called LIPID profiling whihc is done by poathologists......but i may be wrong....i did a whole set of blood tests at the time and one of them was for body fat%...but perhaps i'm wrong...even then, assuming i am right, and the error rate is + or - 5%, that still leaves me with 28%...and i know i was at 28% because the instructor i was training under personally took me to do this test, and he was astonished at the results....but, i did go from 34.3 to 20 BEFORE OVT...and that too with no steroids, etc...only whey.....

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    assuming your stats are correct, its entirely possible that for the first 6 months you gained muscle and lost fat, and from then on fluctuations in diet resulted in muscle gain and fat loss. 2 years is a long time.


    im gonna go out on a limb here, but assuming your fairly young, and are still growing/in puberty, then other things could lead to weight changes than just muscle gain or fat loss.


    not saying your wrong, but just realizing that there are other factors.
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    5 foot 7 and fat is possible yes.. but being 160lb and having 34.7 percent bodyfat is impossible. That would mean you must have been underdeveloped and had nothing under your fat, maybe your thinking of body mass index. 5 foot 7 at 160 with absolutely no muscle mass would be probably 25 percent bf.

    Anyways what smooth said is right, losing fat while gaining muscle was from 2 things, your still maturing because you are still going through puberty and there is something called beginner gains, where you lose fat and gain muscle at the beginning of your training and that slowly comes to a halt where muscle gain then becomes more gradual.
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    Originally Posted by latrell
    5 foot 7 and fat is possible yes.. but being 160lb and having 34.7 percent bodyfat is impossible. That would mean you must have been underdeveloped and had nothing under your fat, maybe your thinking of body mass index. 5 foot 7 at 160 with absolutely no muscle mass would be probably 25 percent bf.

    Anyways what smooth said is right, losing fat while gaining muscle was from 2 things, your still maturing because you are still going through puberty and there is something called beginner gains, where you lose fat and gain muscle at the beginning of your training and that slowly comes to a halt where muscle gain then becomes more gradual.
    ok cool..

    thanks....

    btw, i'd rep you for helping me out, but the system wont let me..

    sorry

    and thanks

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    the very most basic bodyfat calculator, for you it shows half of what you claim. Andalite your skinnier than you thought!

    http://healthresources.caremark.com/topic/bodyfat
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    These measurements don't make much sense to me, somebody help me out here. Not trying to be a dick, I just can't wrap my brain around these numbers.

    He says he's 6'3", 245, 13 inch arms, 36-37" waist.

    To steal a phrase, where's the beef?

    I'm 6'2", 255, 16.5 inch arms, 43" waist. I just benched 320x2 today for the first time, I squat 405 for reps, etc, so I know I have a reasonable amount of muscle.

    I'm not trying to pass judgement or compare myself to him, I'm just having a hard time grasping these numbers. I just don't understand how that all adds up.

    13" arms and a 36-37" waist is downright slim. So how do you weigh 245?

    EDIT: I just realized something. Are you actually measuring your waist, or just going by pant size? Pant size is NOT the circumference of the pants in inches.

    For instance, I have a 43" waist (measured at the belly button) but size 40 pants are already loose on me (when pulled up to the same point).
    Last edited by smackdaddyD; 07-06-2006 at 05:02 PM.
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    Originally Posted by smackdaddyD
    These measurements don't make much sense to me, somebody help me out here. Not trying to be a dick, I just can't wrap my brain around these numbers.

    He says he's 6'3", 245, 13 inch arms, 36-37" waist.

    To steal a phrase, where's the beef?

    I'm 6'2", 255, 16.5 inch arms, 43" waist. I just benched 320x2 today for the first time, I squat 405 for reps, etc, so I know I have a reasonable amount of muscle.

    I'm not trying to pass judgement or compare myself to him, I'm just having a hard time grasping these numbers. I just don't understand how that all adds up.

    13" arms and a 36-37" waist is downright slim. So how do you weigh 245?

    EDIT: I just realized something. Are you actually measuring your waist, or just going by pant size? Pant size is NOT the circumference of the pants in inches.

    For instance, I have a 43" waist (measured at the belly button) but size 40 pants are already loose on me (when pulled up to the same point).
    Going by pant size, and I actually measured my arms for the first time yesterday and they're already 14" circumference, so either I grew my arms alot in the first 8 weeks or my previous guesstimate was off.

    And all my strength is in my legs and back, trying to get my chest/abs/arms to catch up, as they need it badly (although I wouldn't mind a ripped back, either).
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    Originally Posted by Andalite
    ok cool..

    thanks....

    btw, i'd rep you for helping me out, but the system wont let me..

    sorry

    and thanks

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    If you can't get stronger the entire time you cut and build at least some muscle while you are cutting you simply don't know what the *uck you are doing.

    Here are plenty of examples:

    http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=54

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    look at my stats and age
    all i have to say is www.ast-ss.com
    do READ every info there okay ALL OF IT!!!!
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    High Intensity Super Sets will burn fat and build muscle. You will feel twitches like crazy even if your on a diet. You just need a serious amount of desire to do it.
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