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  1. #1
    Registered User WesternGrizzly's Avatar
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    Lat pulldown noob question

    Hey guys. Starting to workout again and doing both wide grip and close grip pulldowns
    Now my question, is there a big difference between V bar pulldowns or close underhand pulldowns, so the close grip v bar or wide bar but close underhand grip. Or am I overthinking this?
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  2. #2
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    Pronated grip will work shoulder adduction.

    Neutral and supinated grip gives the lats a better angle of pull, and involves slightly more bicep.

    Do them all, swap them out from time to time, get strong on each.
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  3. #3
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    Originally Posted by WesternGrizzly View Post
    Hey guys. Starting to workout again and doing both wide grip and close grip pulldowns
    Now my question, is there a big difference between V bar pulldowns or close underhand pulldowns, so the close grip v bar or wide bar but close underhand grip. Or am I overthinking this?
    The lats have two main functions:
    Extension, as in pulling your arms down in front of you.
    Adduction, as in pulling your arms from out wide into your sides.

    Choosing a wide grip allows you to combine lat extension with lat adduction.
    Choosing a narrow grip will focus much more on the extension portion.

    The different between neutral, pronate, and supinate grips is largely which bicep involvement you prefer.
    Pronate grip will work more of the outer biceps.
    Supinate grip will work of the inner biceps.
    Neutral grip splits the difference.

    I would say there isn't really an advantage of going with anything much narrower than shoulder width, but that's probably personal preference.

    There are, however, some advantages with going wider, as that can add towards the function of adduction of the lats.

    *edit*
    BeginnerGainz beat me to it
    Last edited by Camarija; 08-05-2021 at 01:26 AM.
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    Registered User WesternGrizzly's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for the anwers had to look up what each grip meant so gonna start with pronated and supinated grip and later one switch it up with neutral (and once I lose some fat/weight start doing pull/chin ups)

    Just also tried the cable rows, wide grip felt weird so might try next time the somewhat wider bar but with neutral grip next time, guess difference is kinda neglectible aswell or am I mistaken? Also gonna/wanna combine them with the close grip v bar
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    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    It's not complicated if you think about it in terms of elbows in front of you vs. elbows out to your sides. These do impact the lats in slightly different ways. As with all such variations - this might be significant to an experienced bodybuilder but it likely to be nothing more than a distraction to the novice who just needs to focus on progressively overloading a handful of basic exercises.
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    Originally Posted by WesternGrizzly View Post
    Thanks guys for the anwers had to look up what each grip meant so gonna start with pronated and supinated grip and later one switch it up with neutral (and once I lose some fat/weight start doing pull/chin ups)

    Just also tried the cable rows, wide grip felt weird so might try next time the somewhat wider bar but with neutral grip next time, guess difference is kinda neglectible aswell or am I mistaken? Also gonna/wanna combine them with the close grip v bar
    Rows and lat pull downs are 2 very different movement patterns.

    Pull downs are internally rotated, and stress the teres major and lat, while rows are externally rotated and stress the rhomboids, mid and upper traps.

    You should be doing 2:1 rows to pull downs IMO.
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    Registered User WesternGrizzly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    You should be doing 2:1 rows to pull downs IMO.
    Just so I don't make a fool out of myself, 2:1 rows to pull ratio means
    2 rows for 1 pull right? And if it means that, why? Didn't know there was a difference, makes me glad of opening this topic
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  8. #8
    Registered User WesternGrizzly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    It's not complicated if you think about it in terms of elbows in front of you vs. elbows out to your sides. These do impact the lats in slightly different ways. As with all such variations - this might be significant to an experienced bodybuilder but it likely to be nothing more than a distraction to the novice who just needs to focus on progressively overloading a handful of basic exercises.
    What you are saying then is, to not focus on it so much since Im just starting to train again and building strength and progressive overload. Once I am more experienced I can start thinking about which exercise hits which part best or grip for that matter?
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  9. #9
    Moderator SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Yep
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    Originally Posted by WesternGrizzly View Post
    What you are saying then is, to not focus on it so much since Im just starting to train again and building strength and progressive overload. Once I am more experienced I can start thinking about which exercise hits which part best or grip for that matter?
    On the basis of that, I would add just to make sure then, that as you are acquiring a familiarity with the exercise, you don't learn it in a compromising, overly specialized variation. Perhaps if you don't have a basic feel for vertical pulls yet, you might choose a narrower or wider grip than would be the best, comprehensively, but this is a fine point of difference.

    I would try somewhat wider than shoulder-width and then see which feels the most natural, then stick with that without worrying too much about it.
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  11. #11
    Registered User WesternGrizzly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    On the basis of that, I would add just to make sure then, that as you are acquiring a familiarity with the exercise, you don't learn it in a compromising, overly specialized variation. Perhaps if you don't have a basic feel for vertical pulls yet, you might choose a narrower or wider grip than would be the best, comprehensively, but this is a fine point of difference.

    I would try somewhat wider than shoulder-width and then see which feels the most natural, then stick with that without worrying too much about it.
    Thanks man, will try and find that sweet spot. I don't feel my back/lats as much so gotta work on that mind muscle connection everyone mentions but guess it can take some time and practice to get used to.
    Also decided to stick withb1 variation, got advised to not overdo it (cause im coming back from a layoff and haven't lifted seriously in a while) so to stick with basics and build overtime but will look what grip suits me best and use that thanks!
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    Originally Posted by WesternGrizzly View Post
    Just so I don't make a fool out of myself, 2:1 rows to pull ratio means
    2 rows for 1 pull right? And if it means that, why? Didn't know there was a difference, makes me glad of opening this topic
    I too would like to know why.

    I personally program my back workouts twice a week, each workout only having one horizontal row and one vertical row. In addition to a pull (i.e. deadlift), a shrug, and face pulls that seemed to cover all the bases.
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    Originally Posted by WesternGrizzly View Post
    Just so I don't make a fool out of myself, 2:1 rows to pull ratio means
    2 rows for 1 pull right? And if it means that, why? Didn't know there was a difference, makes me glad of opening this topic
    Originally Posted by WWE-TicK View Post
    I too would like to know why.

    I personally program my back workouts twice a week, each workout only having one horizontal row and one vertical row. In addition to a pull (i.e. deadlift), a shrug, and face pulls that seemed to cover all the bases.
    Because of shoulder health and development, and facepulls ARE a type of row.

    And they don’t have to be heavy either, it could be a row, then some kind of vertical pull then something to work on the scapular retractors (facepulls, reverse pec deck, rear delt rows, etc) basically what you are already doing Tick.

    I start all my upper body work with scapular retraction work with bands, usually in the form of rear delt rows, it helps find my groove in my other pulls and even my presses better.
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  14. #14
    Registered User WesternGrizzly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    Because of shoulder health and development, and facepulls ARE a type of row.

    And they don’t have to be heavy either, it could be a row, then some kind of vertical pull then something to work on the scapular retractors (facepulls, reverse pec deck, rear delt rows, etc) basically what you are already doing Tick.

    I start all my upper body work with scapular retraction work with bands, usually in the form of rear delt rows, it helps find my groove in my other pulls and even my presses better.
    Ahh gotcha, will keep it simple then and just do 1 row+face pulls, and 1 vertical pull then thanks for the clarification man
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    A few very misinformed statements in here.

    Internal and external rotation doesn't occur the way people seem to be thinking.

    Shoulder "health" isnt really a thing outside of injuries. Its a bs marketing term coined by movement gurus like squat u or Jeff most recently.

    There is no ratio that actually plays out in the real world for vertical & horizontal pulling, and especially no pushull ratio nor pushull:reach ratio That can be applied to anyone an a basis that isn't on a -per individual- basis given any anthropometrical or injury issues

    What is useful to take away from this thread. No one has big enough rear delts.
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    I tend to do more vertical pulling. It "feels" more important, probably from years of gymnastics. But I'm not an "aesthetics" guy. Just want to be muscular and lift heavy s***. I do rear delt work but consider that an isolation rather than a "pull", and throw in horizontal pulling a bit. Lately cable pulls cuz they are easy to throw in at the end after I'm exhausted from free weight work.

    Maybe ego doesn't have shoulder issues, but personally I think shoulder health is important. And yes, it's to prevent injuries. My brother tore his bicep tendon due to shoulder issues, and I had the same issues but caught it before I tore anything. Just work on external rotation and lower traps to keep the shoulders from rolling forward and tearing a tendon.
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    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem View Post
    A few very misinformed statements in here.

    Internal and external rotation doesn't occur the way people seem to be thinking.

    Shoulder "health" isnt really a thing outside of injuries. Its a bs marketing term coined by movement gurus like squat u or Jeff most recently.

    There is no ratio that actually plays out in the real world for vertical & horizontal pulling, and especially no pushull ratio nor pushull:reach ratio That can be applied to anyone an a basis that isn't on a -per individual- basis given any anthropometrical or injury issues

    What is useful to take away from this thread. No one has big enough rear delts.
    Still happy I made this thread. Learning alot from everyone.
    Do you reckon twice a week face pulls is good for rear delt or once a week alongside rows is enough (to begin with for overall health and development)
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    Originally Posted by jademonkey View Post
    I tend to do more vertical pulling. It "feels" more important, probably from years of gymnastics. But I'm not an "aesthetics" guy. Just want to be muscular and lift heavy s***. I do rear delt work but consider that an isolation rather than a "pull", and throw in horizontal pulling a bit. Lately cable pulls cuz they are easy to throw in at the end after I'm exhausted from free weight work.

    Maybe ego doesn't have shoulder issues, but personally I think shoulder health is important. And yes, it's to prevent injuries. My brother tore his bicep tendon due to shoulder issues, and I had the same issues but caught it before I tore anything. Just work on external rotation and lower traps to keep the shoulders from rolling forward and tearing a tendon.
    Yeah can see vertical being very important in gymnastics (see alot of olympics when its on the tv, its insane the strength and bodies those guys have)
    I used to be all about aesthetics, back in my 20s. Was fit, looked good, enjoyed life. Then got my wife and kinda slacked big time also camped with alot of injuries and bad eating habits (maybe thats why I got the injuries). But now I also just wanna focus on going to the gym. Raise my strength and be consistent the rest will follow. But always was a big fan of pullups, now I probably wont be able to do one but gonna get me a resistance band and maybe practice deficit chins to build that strength up again. I do love working my back out
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    In my routine I use two exercises for each muscle group, so I regularly employ both of these. Chinups for biceps, wide grip pullups for back - nothing in the world hits my lats as well as a wide pullup but damn they take a long time to progress in. Very tough lift but absolutely fries my lats - never used a pulldown machine so I can't say how well those work, but pullups and chinups have always worked well for me. I wouldn't pick between chins and pulls, i'd include them both because they honestly complement each other pretty well. One does what the other doesn't, and vice versa - like two partners in a buddy cop movie or something.
    Back to basics full body routine: https://pastebin.com/5BgKgrMv

    Training journal: https://igoodies.000webhostapp.com/?viagra=showthread.php?t=178059671&p=1598034261#post1598034261
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