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    Philosophical basis of veganism

    All the talk about veganism made me hungry for a meaty debate about it and its philosophical underpinnings.

    Someone here want to present an argument against eating meat and for a particular «brand» of diet?

    I personally think it is ok for humans to eat meat, and I have some issues with modern moral philosophy.

    I am sure the thread will derail somehow, but probably in an interesting direction.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    All the talk about veganism made me hungry for a meaty debate about it and its philosophical underpinnings.

    Someone here want to present an argument against eating meat and for a particular «brand» of diet?

    I personally think it is ok for humans to eat meat, and I have some issues with modern moral philosophy.

    I am sure the thread will derail somehow, but probably in an interesting direction.

    The standard argument is about reducing needless harm/suffering. That's pretty much it.

    Almost all animal products we consume/buy are made via the death or exploitation of sentient, intelligent animals capable of experiencing pain, suffering, and emotions.

    Because there is technically no need to eat meat to survive and be healthy, the decision to consume dead animal flesh or almost any of their byproducts (which do result in animal death, like in the egg and dairy industry) is essentially admitting that your taste pleasure is more important than the lives and feelings of sentient beings.

    Even when you eat eggs, in the industry male chicks (because they cannot be useful) are simply blended up alive (yes, 100% conscious and alive) or suffocated in plastic bags until they're dead.

    Dairy industry: forced impregnations in addition to the mental suffering of stripping calfs away from their mothers to be either sold as veal or something else... and of course long-term you're just breeding animals into existence for the purpose of milking them for food use.




    Veganism isn't so much about saying 'eating meat is wrong'.... certainly there are cases where you'd NEED to in order to not die.


    But again, in 2021, with all the access to cheap food options, supplements if you're worried about deficiency, again: you're making a decision to support an industry which relies on the suffering and death of animals when it isn't needed.


    This isn't an argument I'm making personally per se, but that is the standard thought about it.


    And I will admit, I struggle even now sometimes consuming dairy and eggs for that very reason. The industry is sickening..... consuming meat/dairy/eggs if you HAVE TO is not.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 07-30-2021 at 08:55 AM.
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    ^^ That's an often overlooked point.

    Interesting, too, that the complete ambivalence towards the suffering is often most largely represented from an ostensibly Christian standpoint, but it is interesting when one considers that this criterium of necessity was both more relevant and significant in a biblical setting when sustenance and survival were real matters of daily life, in a climate where keeping and living off of livestock was an integral part of sustaining that.

    "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn." And in numerous places it speaks of God's anger towards those who are cruel to animals, or identifying a righteous man as one who takes care of the living creatures in his tutelage.

    So, in the modern world, where mere survival is no longer a realistic problem for the general population, even often the impoverished, this same criterium of necessity is not comparable to the cultural basis of what is presumed to be the shared belief endorsing the position that animal suffering is irrelevant.

    I'm not against eating red meat (and in fact, a local farm produces a lot of the red meat that I eat), but this is an interesting thought to consider, since usually secular people are more sympathetic to this issue, while the ambivalence tends to be more associated with those professing Christian belief in the west.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    ^^ That's an often overlooked point.

    Interesting, too, that the complete ambivalence towards the suffering is often most largely represented from an ostensibly Christian standpoint, but it is interesting when one considers that this criterium of necessity was both more relevant and significant in a biblical setting when sustenance and survival were real matters of daily life, in a climate where keeping and living off of livestock was an integral part of sustaining that.

    "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn." And in numerous places it speaks of God's anger towards those who are cruel to animals, or identifying a righteous man as one who takes care of the living creatures in his tutelage.

    So, in the modern world, where mere survival is no longer a realistic problem for the general population, even often the impoverished, this same criterium of necessity is not comparable to the cultural basis of what is presumed to be the shared belief endorsing the position that animal suffering is irrelevant.

    I'm not against eating red meat (and in fact, a local farm produces a lot of the red meat that I eat), but this is an interesting thought to consider, since usually secular people are more sympathetic to this issue, while the ambivalence tends to be more associated with those professing Christian belief in the west.
    You might enjoy this debate. It's actually a great conversation and both Mike and Richard (Vegan Gains) make good points in all directions.

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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    The standard argument is about reducing needless harm/suffering. That's pretty much it.

    Almost all animal products we consume/buy are made via the death or exploitation of sentient, intelligent animals capable of experiencing pain, suffering, and emotions.

    Because there is technically no need to eat meat to survive and be healthy, the decision to consume dead animal flesh or almost any of their byproducts (which do result in animal death, like in the egg and dairy industry) is essentially admitting that your taste pleasure is more important than the lives and feelings of sentient beings.

    Even when you eat eggs, in the industry male chicks (because they cannot be useful) are simply blended up alive (yes, 100% conscious and alive) or suffocated in plastic bags until they're dead.

    Dairy industry: forced impregnations in addition to the mental suffering of stripping calfs away from their mothers to be either sold as veal or something else... and of course long-term you're just breeding animals into existence for the purpose of milking them for food use.




    Veganism isn't so much about saying 'eating meat is wrong'.... certainly there are cases where you'd NEED to in order to not die.


    But again, in 2021, with all the access to cheap food options, supplements if you're worried about deficiency, again: you're making a decision to support an industry which relies on the suffering and death of animals when it isn't needed.


    This isn't an argument I'm making personally per se, but that is the standard thought about it.


    And I will admit, I struggle even now sometimes consuming dairy and eggs for that very reason. The industry is sickening..... consuming meat/dairy/eggs if you HAVE TO is not.
    Very interesting. So the protest is more against the cynical nature of the meat industry than adopting the moral stance that eating meat is wrong in itself? I suspect even most of us meat eaters will agree on that.

    I will gladly pay more for meat, eggs etc if that means the animals have a higher quality of life.

    But I have definitely met some vegans who have claimed «eating meat is morally wrong» as an absolute...
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    Very interesting. So the protest is more against the cynical nature of the meat industry than adopting the moral principle that eating meat is wrong in itself? I suspect even most of us meat eaters will agree on that.

    But I have definitely met some vegans who have claimed «eating meat is morally wrong» as an absolute...
    The industrialization of animals is the most overt example of needless suffering at a mass scale, but it exists in other less obvious ways as well.

    If you buy a car with leather seats.... did you NEED to have an animal killed so you could enjoy a soft seat?

    If you buy a fur coat, did you NEED to do that? Did an animal HAVE to suffer? Technically no...



    Even outside of the factory farming context, like if a farmer raises a single animal and then decides to kill it: why did that need to happen? Why was the decision made that, without any actual need to do it, that animal's life was worth less than your desire for a sandwich or a stew?


    So yes, the industrial aspect is the worst case, but it's not the only case.


    And if a vegan says eating meat in ANY case is wrong, I would challenge them to not eat meat if they were stranded on a desert island with nothing but a spear and wild animals to hunt. But again that's the rarest possible case.


    It extends beyond eating meat tho, like I said: both the dairy and egg industries REQUIRE death and animal suffering/pain to function.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    This isn't an argument I'm making personally per se, but that is the standard thought about it.
    what are your personal arguments for eating meat though?
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by faithbrah View Post
    what are your personal arguments for eating meat though?
    I don't consume red meat or poultry...

    I do consume fish/shellfish and dairy/eggs tho.


    To be honest, right now, most of the reasoning is simply because of my eating disorder history. Because I have struggled before with food restriction, I don't feel it is yet appropriate for me to impose strict rules on my eating patterns because it risks me falling back into bad habits.

    As a result, I chose an in-between where I could still enjoy everything I wanted to without consuming the more overt meat sources that have a track record of more extreme exploitative and inhumane practices. That landed me at pescatarian.


    Additionally, in terms of sentience, you could argue that fish/shellfish experience lesser degrees of pain given their less complex nervous systems... so on some level I feel I am likely doing 'less' harm.


    In the long term though, hopefully I can do even less. But for now, I have to make a decision that prevent me from relapsing.
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    its kind of more about which animal do you care about the most. and by animal, this includes humans. Here in California we grow a lot of crops for the rest of the country, as well as several factory farms for meat. i have driven past just about all of them at some point. So yeah, the meat industry is cruel to animals. And ironically cruel to species that wouldn’t even exist if it weren’t for the meat industry. conversely, agriculture is cruel to the humans that work the fields in deplorable conditions. I drive by these farms often and I am hot in my car with the windows up and the AC going, these guys are out there in the dust and sun for 16 hour days for less than minimum wages. and thats not even counting the rest of the supply chain and crops harvested in other countries(on which forest homes of wildlife are burned to make room for whatever crop). like in the case of palm oil where orangutans are killed and displaced due to their habitat being decimated for palm oil.

    i suppose if you really wanted to “cause no suffering” you would grow and or gather all your own crops, and even hunt your own animals and raise egg hens. if you just stop eating one thing and ignoring the rest of the issues its kind of hypocritical, just shifting the problems somewhere else.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    its kind of more about which animal do you care about the most. and by animal, this includes humans. Here in California we grow a lot of crops for the rest of the country, as well as several factory farms for meat. i have driven past just about all of them at some point. So yeah, the meat industry is cruel to animals. And ironically cruel to species that wouldn’t even exist if it weren’t for the meat industry. conversely, agriculture is cruel to the humans that work the fields in deplorable conditions. I drive by these farms often and I am hot in my car with the windows up and the AC going, these guys are out there in the dust and sun for 16 hour days for less than minimum wages. and thats not even counting the rest of the supply chain and crops harvested in other countries(on which forest homes of wildlife are burned to make room for whatever crop). like in the case of palm oil where orangutans are killed and displaced due to their habitat being decimated for palm oil.

    i suppose if you really wanted to “cause no suffering” you would grow and or gather all your own crops, and even hunt your own animals and raise egg hens. if you just stop eating one thing and ignoring the rest of the issues its kind of hypocritical, just shifting the problems somewhere else.
    This is true....however, because an insane amount of the crops we grow actually go BACK to feeding the animals we breed for food, the animal products industries are vastly worse in terms of total negative impact. There's a compounding effect because animals also have to consume the vegetation whereas if all we did was consume plant matter, we'd remove a massive arm of consumption that didn't technically need to exist.

    In general though, agricultural industries/food producers are notoriously bad with employee welfare, and it should change if we actually want to be 'humane'.



    I should also mention, not everyone holds the same value of animal welfare or a desire to reduce 'suffering' to the same degree.

    A great example is things like fish/seafood and especially less intelligent animals.

    What humans perceive as 'pain' and 'suffering' is likely very different than what animals experience. We have a concept of past/future/present and are able to mourn the loss of others much longer and more deeply.

    That being case, I think it is reason to assume that - as intelligence reduces along the hierarchy of animal evolution - so does the ability to suffer in varying degrees.

    I do not think a crab feels the same pain as a human...


    And to that end, if you - as a human at the top of the food chain - genuinely believe that the capacity to suffer by a chicken just isn't severe enough to stop eating them.... that's your decision. Nobody is going to make it for you, ya know?


    BUT, i do think it is reasonable to say that it IS objectively inhumane to allow the kind of mistreatment and outright torture that happens in some large-scale farming operations, and sadly as consumers we don't have nearly as much visibility as we think into how animals are really treated behind closed doors.
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    As per usual, I agree with basically everything Adam has said. I'm also a former vegan who now eats dairy, eggs, & fish. I believe it's most "ideal" to eat a vegan diet from an ethical perspective, but it's not an ideal everyone can reasonably uphold. Finances, eating disorder history, nutritional needs, resources, & other factors all play a role. I feel the same way, in the most extreme example, about killing other people. Taking a human life is "ideally" never justified. There are, however, cases where people must kill to defend themselves and their families. Killing in these circumstances, like eating meat, is not "good". It is however both justified and necessary. Now, there is a ton of nuance here when it comes to diet and this is an extreme example, but I discount myself from the vegan lifestyle due to both meager finances and a history of restricted eating. My health and mental state would likely suffer from adopting a completely vegan lifestyle. Being vegan both fostered a more restrictive mindset, required obsession about food including reading every label all the time, & resulted in insufficient protein/Omega-3 intake. Supplements could've fixed this, but I have neither the desire nor the funds nor the mental space to stick to rigorous supplementation.

    I also think that all conscious life has value & should be protected, but we're kidding ourselves if there's not a hierarchy. The greater the capacity of a being to think & feel, the greater the capacity to suffer.

    All are conscious & should be harmed as littles as possible, but humans>other mammals/cephalopods>birds & reptiles>fish>insects>mollusks>plants
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    As per usual, I agree with basically everything Adam has said. I'm also a former vegan who now eats dairy, eggs, & fish. I believe it's most "ideal" to eat a vegan diet from an ethical perspective, but it's not an ideal everyone can reasonably uphold. Finances, eating disorder history, nutritional needs, resources, & other factors all play a role. I feel the same way, in the most extreme example, about killing other people. Taking a human life is "ideally" never justified. There are, however, cases where people must kill to defend themselves and their families. Killing in these circumstances, like eating meat, is not "good". It is however both justified and necessary. Now, there is a ton of nuance here when it comes to diet and this is an extreme example, but I discount myself from the vegan lifestyle due to both meager finances and a history of restricted eating. My health and mental state would likely suffer from adopting a completely vegan lifestyle. Being vegan both fostered a more restrictive mindset, required obsession about food including reading every label all the time, & resulted in insufficient protein/Omega-3 intake. Supplements could've fixed this, but I have neither the desire nor the funds nor the mental space to stick to rigorous supplementation.

    I also think that all conscious life has value & should be protected, but we're kidding ourselves if there's not a hierarchy. The greater the capacity of a being to think & feel, the greater the capacity to suffer.

    All are conscious & should be harmed as littles as possible, but humans>other mammals/cephalopods>birds & reptiles>fish>insects>mollusks>plants
    You actually reminded me of yet another reason I don't follow a completely vegan diet now either: digestion.


    Sadly, my ED past seriously messed up my digestion, and when I was fully vegan, it was very difficult to get enough protein in to feel satisfied without eating too many beans/lentils/pulses etc.

    I was able to balance it if I put in a LOT of effort, but as you mentioned it can often require someone to perseverate on food choices more than they otherwise would need to, and such was NOT a good path for me.

    I'm very much in disagreement with militant vegan who say 'under no circumstances in today's world is it OK or justified to consume animal products'.

    If someone's daily quality of life is reduced by 50% because they opt for 100% plant-based foods vs adding in - for example - 1-2 eggs a day and a couple servings of seafood... I'm sorry but to expect someone to take THAT much of a hit to their daily quality of life is not reasonable.

    I think a bit of inconvenience is OK... we all need to sacrifice somewhere, but there is a limit.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    You actually reminded me of yet another reason I don't follow a completely vegan diet now either: digestion.


    Sadly, my ED past seriously messed up my digestion, and when I was fully vegan, it was very difficult to get enough protein in to feel satisfied without eating too many beans/lentils/pulses etc.

    I was able to balance it if I put in a LOT of effort, but as you mentioned it can often require someone to perseverate on food choices more than they otherwise would need to, and such was NOT a good path for me.

    I'm very much in disagreement with militant vegan who say 'under no circumstances in today's world is it OK or justified to consume animal products'.

    If someone's daily quality of life is reduced by 50% because they opt for 100% plant-based foods vs adding in - for example - 1-2 eggs a day and a couple servings of seafood... I'm sorry but to expect someone to take THAT much of a hit to their daily quality of life is not reasonable.

    I think a bit of inconvenience is OK... we all need to sacrifice somewhere, but there is a limit.
    Completely agreed on all counts. Trying to digest all those beans and lentils I had to eat was a massive drain on both me & my toilet's quality of life.
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    Well, even though I am a guy who was taught from 11 years old to kill with a knife chickens and turkeys and ducks and later big mammals (I lived in a more rural region and we had animals), I can understand and agree with the principles or veganism now. Back then, I was taught that it is normal to kill them because animals = food and we need food.

    Like it or not, animals are tortured in a hardcore way from birth. Sure, when it is about people, we should care because wow, they are human beings and they are the same as us. When it comes to animals, **** em, they are not as smart as us. Although most people are ****ing dumb, but you cannot tell them this. People still keep parrots and other birds in small cages in their appartments or houses and they honestly believe those animals are happy.

    I try to limit myself now to free range eggs, goat cheese from local producers, some goat yoghurt and mainly chicken thighs. Tried a few times to eat mainly beans, lentils, soy but the digestion was pretty bad and it was hard to be around people - not as bad as eating lots of oats with lots of egg whites, though, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I tried the whole "rinse the beans, rinse them and you'll be fine", didn't work. I still eat them, but in smaller portions. Plus chia, hemp seeds, caju and others, who have decent protein. Pumpkin seed flour was pretty tasty for me.



    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    I'm not against eating red meat (and in fact, a local farm produces a lot of the red meat that I eat), but this is an interesting thought to consider, since usually secular people are more sympathetic to this issue, while the ambivalence tends to be more associated with those professing Christian belief in the west.
    Dude, before reading this topic, I thought that you would have zero problems with animal suffering just because you mentioned a few weeks ago that you shoot guns or something like that. I may be mistaken. Maybe because when it comes to Americans I mainly split you guys in two:

    1. Conservatives
    - pro guns, love their guns
    - hate vegans and some even enjoy animal cruelty just because it annoys vegans
    - anti drugs, but don't they away their beer
    - against minimum wage
    - anti abortion
    - religious
    - **** the poor (just like Jesus said)
    - corona is a hoax, they want to kll us, it doesn't exist, the vaccine = death

    2. Liberals
    - guns kill people
    - more vegans, lgbt, atheists
    - pro drugs
    - my body, my choice
    - pro minimum wage
    - eat the rich
    - put your mask on

    I I am aware that things are more different, but when I read your CNN vs FOX, it's like watching news from two different universes.


    Extremely rarely you see someone who says "Hey, I'm a racist, I believe in women rights, I am a vegan and I am pro guns, I smoke weed and I am against minimum wage" People love to follow a pattern. Left or right. They need that feeling of belonging somewhere.


    And mostly, from what I've seen on youtube, conservative guys (Jordan Peterson and others) go carnivore or keto. Never a liberal. Even the food is split in these two categories. Wow!
    "Reminds me of the good ol' days back in 03-04 when ripptoes/5 by 5/hit/doggcrap reigned supreme and you did not need direct arm work for big biceps. Rows and chins were it. "Ever see a guy rowing 300+lbs with chicken arms?". Ah yes those were the days. God bless amusclehead and his twisted one dimensional views along with the rest of the former flock."
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    Well, even though I am a guy who was taught from 11 years old to kill with a knife chickens and turkeys and ducks and later big mammals (I lived in a more rural region and we had animals), I can understand and agree with the principles or veganism now. Back then, I was taught that it is normal to kill them because animals = food and we need food.

    Like it or not, animals are tortured in a hardcore way from birth. Sure, when it is about people, we should care because wow, they are human beings and they are the same as us. When it comes to animals, **** em, they are not as smart as us. Although most people are ****ing dumb, but you cannot tell them this. People still keep parrots and other birds in small cages in their appartments or houses and they honestly believe those animals are happy.

    I try to limit myself now to free range eggs, goat cheese from local producers, some goat yoghurt and mainly chicken thighs. Tried a few times to eat mainly beans, lentils, soy but the digestion was pretty bad and it was hard to be around people - not as bad as eating lots of oats with lots of egg whites, though, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I tried the whole "rinse the beans, rinse them and you'll be fine", didn't work. I still eat them, but in smaller portions. Plus chia, hemp seeds, caju and others, who have decent protein. Pumpkin seed flour was pretty tasty for me.





    Dude, before reading this topic, I thought that you would have zero problems with animal suffering just because you mentioned a few weeks ago that you shoot guns or something like that. I may be mistaken. Maybe because when it comes to Americans I mainly split you guys in two:

    1. Conservatives
    - pro guns, love their guns
    - hate vegans and some even enjoy animal cruelty just because it annoys vegans
    - anti drugs, but don't they away their beer
    - against minimum wage
    - anti abortion
    - religious
    - **** the poor (just like Jesus said)
    - corona is a hoax, they want to kll us, it doesn't exist, the vaccine = death

    2. Liberals
    - guns kill people
    - more vegans, lgbt, atheists
    - pro drugs
    - my body, my choice
    - pro minimum wage
    - eat the rich
    - put your mask on

    I I am aware that things are more different, but when I read your CNN vs FOX, it's like watching news from two different universes.


    Extremely rarely you see someone who says "Hey, I'm a racist, I believe in women rights, I am a vegan and I am pro guns, I smoke weed and I am against minimum wage" People love to follow a pattern. Left or right. They need that feeling of belonging somewhere.


    And mostly, from what I've seen on youtube, conservative guys (Jordan Peterson and others) go carnivore or keto. Never a liberal. Even the food is split in these two categories. Wow!

    Yeah you have a very inaccurate view of Americans....

    You're comparing a Christian rural Alabama Trumpist Klan Member to a Blue-Haired Transexual barista from Portland.

    I dunno where you're from, but you're stereotyping hardcore

    Not everyone falls on the extreme end of the political spectrum nor are you forced to match with all typical viewpoints or values...


    Personally...


    I own a gun
    I think most drugs should be legal/not criminal offenses
    I hate the mask BS
    Im pro-choice
    Im indifferent to religion personally... but I think it has no place in politics
    Im pro-capital punishment
    I'm pro socialized healthcare

    People aren't just fitting into perfect buckets
    Last edited by AdamWW; 07-30-2021 at 04:45 PM.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Yeah you have a very inaccurate view of Americans....

    You're comparing a Christian rural Alabama Trumpist to a Blue-Haired Transexual barista from Portland.

    I dunno where you're from, but you're stereotyping hardcore

    Not everyone falls on the extreme end of the political spectrum nor are you forced to match with all typical viewpoints or values...


    Personally...


    I own a gun
    I think most drugs should be legal/not criminal offenses
    I hate the mask BS
    Im pro-choice
    Im indifferent to religion personally... but I think it has no place in politics
    Im pro-capital punishment
    I'm pro socialized healthcare

    People aren't just fitting into perfect buckets

    well, he is basing his view from what is shown on TV, which is extremists one way or the other. normal people don’t make good news headlines. kind of like how a youtube channel or diet book that just says to eat big and lift heavy(which as actually what works) would fail miserably. have to go to extremes to sell stuff.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    well, he is basing his view from what is shown on TV, which is extremists one way or the other. normal people don’t make good news headlines. kind of like how a youtube channel or diet book that just says to eat big and lift heavy(which as actually what works) would fail miserably. have to go to extremes to sell stuff.
    Yeah... i imagine it extends to how many American view other countries as well... kind of sucks really
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    Vegan philosophy has to do with not exploiting animals at all, be it for sustenance or other things such as wool or leather. Human products tested for safety or otherwise on animals also goes against veganism. Like I'm pretty sure entertainment venues that use cattle or horses is pretty bad too.
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Vegan philosophy has to do with not exploiting animals at all, be it for sustenance or other things such as wool or leather. Human products tested for safety or otherwise on animals also goes against veganism. Like I'm pretty sure entertainment venues that use cattle or horses is pretty bad too.
    Yup. I have a vegan wallet (most are leather) & do my best to make sure all the products I buy are vegan. Veganism is a whole philosophy and lifestyle. If it's only your diet, you're technically just a "plant-based" eater...not a vegan.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Yup. I have a vegan wallet (most are leather) & do my best to make sure all the products I buy are vegan. Veganism is a whole philosophy and lifestyle. If it's only your diet, you're technically just a "plant-based" eater...not a vegan.
    gotta wear an N95 mask at all times so you don’t breathe any dust. household dust contains human skin cells.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Yup. I have a vegan wallet (most are leather) & do my best to make sure all the products I buy are vegan. Veganism is a whole philosophy and lifestyle. If it's only your diet, you're technically just a "plant-based" eater...not a vegan.
    thats where things get tricky. cause you don’t buy leather. but is there a leather trade separate from factory meat farms? is it better morally to kill them for only meat and bury the skin and bones? or is it better morally to be like the indians(feather) and use every part of the cow that gave his life? using the skin for leathef, the bones, penor, and tendons for dog treats etc.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    thats where things get tricky. cause you don’t buy leather. but is there a leather trade separate from factory meat farms? is it better morally to kill them for only meat and bury the skin and bones? or is it better morally to be like the indians(feather) and use every part of the cow that gave his life? using the skin for leathef, the bones, penor, and tendons for dog treats etc.
    As far as vegan ethics are concerned it's basically equal; suffering is suffering is suffering... they're abolitionists, no grey areas.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    gotta wear an N95 mask at all times so you don’t breathe any dust. household dust contains human skin cells.
    Ik this is a joke, but this is the same black-and-white thinking that militant vegans can't seem to let go of. It's about MINIMIZING suffering. No one's gonna dedicate their entire lives to avoid all skin cells or insect-based dyes or not take antibiotics because bacteria are living beings. It's about lessening your impact on the suffering or death of animals to the best of your knowledge & abilities. Vegans would do a lot better to help their cause if they just encouraged people to go more plant-based or eat less factor-farmed animal products (if not less meat in general). Instead, many try to convince people to go "full vegan" :P or nothing.
    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    As far as vegan ethics are concerned it's basically equal; suffering is suffering is suffering... they're abolitionists, no grey areas.
    This. That being said, while I try to buy vegan products, I believe "Indian" leather is better because I believe in nuance and grey area.
    Last edited by Strawng; 07-30-2021 at 06:14 PM.
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    well, he is basing his view from what is shown on TV, which is extremists one way or the other. normal people don’t make good news headlines. kind of like how a youtube channel or diet book that just says to eat big and lift heavy(which as actually what works) would fail miserably. have to go to extremes to sell stuff.
    To be fair, I think TV/social media is actually warping the American public. Ik so many people irl who used to have more nuanced or moderate views who are now left/right-wing crackpots. This country's going to Hell in a fuking handbasket.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    This. That being said, while I try to buy vegan products, I believe "Indian" leather is better because I believe in nuance and grey area.
    Oh for sure.

    In fact, I believe hunting for meat is far more 'ethical' than consuming factory farmed meat due to it's lack of connection to a system which causes unintentional deaths by things like viruses or bacteria that kill of the farmed animals.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Oh for sure.

    In fact, I believe hunting for meat is far more 'ethical' than consuming factory farmed meat due to it's lack of connection to a system which causes unintentional deaths by things like viruses or bacteria that kill of the farmed animals.
    Completely agreed. I honestly wish more people would hunt. People are just so disconnected from what the put in their bodies: nutritionally, physiologically, ethically, spiritually. Hunting forces you to connect with the reality of what you're consuming & allows you to procure meat that wasn't borne of the animal Holocaust going on to stock most grocery store shelves.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Completely agreed. I honestly wish more people would hunt. People are just so disconnected from what the put in their bodies: nutritionally, physiologically, ethically, spiritually. Hunting forces you to connect with the reality of what you're consuming & allows you to procure meat that wasn't borne of the animal Holocaust going on to stock most grocery store shelves.
    You hit the nail on the head.

    TBH, although I personally would never choose to hunt a deer, wild boar, or even rabbits or birds for the purpose of eating them unless I had to... I actually don't really have an argument against people hunting morally-speaking because if someone is willing to be 100% invested and involved in the process and still go through with it... that's their morals, not mine.

    Contrast that with the factory/mass-agricultural side, you have animals packed into cages, pecking/biting each other to death, being killed with machinery that is designed to basically maximize efficiency and not the comfort/emotional condition of the animals... it's not the same thing.


    Yes, you could argue that not every hunter kills in a way that is quick/clean/painless... BUT... when it's a single animal, you're only effecting that one animal in that process vs. in a factory setting you'll have those cases where it is literally just wasted deaths with zero benefit whatsoever. Not the same with hunters who actually have some kind of conscience.

    Of course it's not as 'good' morally as just not killing at all, but it's leaps and bounds better than just eating mcdonald's meat 3 times a day.



    I definitely believe in point of the 'if it's too appalling for your eyes, why isn't it too appalling for your mouth?' rhetoric.


    Things like gathering eggs, shrimp, crabs, even fish (though cleaning them is kinda gross) is stuff I would do and wouldn't really feel 'bad' about it... so at least in that sense im logically consistent in my choices.

    But when it comes to other animals... i just can't do it myself unless I was forced to.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Completely agreed. I honestly wish more people would hunt. People are just so disconnected from what the put in their bodies: nutritionally, physiologically, ethically, spiritually. Hunting forces you to connect with the reality of what you're consuming & allows you to procure meat that wasn't borne of the animal Holocaust going on to stock most grocery store shelves.
    to make what you say even worse. think of all the food that goes to waste! I can’t remember the last estimate i read, maybe 60% of food gets thrown out. meat sitting in grocery stores too long gets tossed. but stores don’t want to run out of stock. So when you drive by the factory farms, over half those cows will end up in the dumpster.
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  29. #29
    Registered User EiFit91's Avatar
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    Very happy how this thread turned out. Thanks Adam and Strawng for sharing your perspectives.

    My only «objection» would be that it seems more reasonable to work for reducing, rather than minimizing suffering. Minimizing is a strong goal and requires us to be able to see in advance the end consequences of our all possible actions. That can be very difficult, very often there are unintended consequences of our actions that can only be learned ex post. The goal of minimization also requires more self-sacrifice than I think is realistic to achieve.

    Working towards reducing suffering seems more feasible as there are many ways of reducing suffering. And also way easier to get meat eaters to join in pursuing that goal. I am sure most meat eaters who can afford to would want to pay to reduce animal suffering, but they wouldn’t want to give up meat entirely.

    Concerning the hierarchy: Obviously a fish, crab etc doesn’t want to be captured and killed. If you assigned human consciousness to a fish for a day I am sure it would prefer to change the ordering of the hierarchy.
    Last edited by EiFit91; 07-31-2021 at 12:06 AM.
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    Cows create methane. Live stock creates a large amount pollution. Animals, even free range are treated pretty crappy. Some religions like Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism and Buddhism don’t eat meat.

    I stopped eating meat at 8 cause my parents slaughtered my pet dairy goat without telling me and feed it to me. They also slaughtered her 3 babies that I helped with the breeched births of. :/
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