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    Since exercise no longer affects TDEE, should the activity multiplier always = 1 now?

    In the old days when exercise affected TDEE, we would recommend people use a multiplier against their BMR, based on activity and exercise level and frequency. Now that exercise no longer affects TDEE, should we just recommend people to use a multiplier of 1?
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    Good that you bring it up. Apparently the discussion in the other thread isn't clear to many.

    In the old days TDEE calculators were a rough guess, in the new days they are still a rough guess.

    This is explained in the stickies too, literal quote:

    Keep in mind this number is only an estimate. What your real TDEE is can be found out by monitoring your weight and calorie intake over time.
    So you can use it as an intitial estimate. It could be quite right it or could be totally wrong, you don't know.

    What is seen in some studies is that more exercise can sometimes have no effect on TDEE and sometimes even lower TDEE. This is in conflict with the calculators of course. So best not to make assumptions.
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    Did Adam delete the other thread with the debate in it? I can't find it anymore.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Did Adam delete the other thread with the debate in it? I can't find it anymore.
    Same here, it seems to have disappeared?
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Did Adam delete the other thread with the debate in it? I can't find it anymore.
    That's too bad if it did, it was an interesting thread, until it devolved into a soap opera on the last page.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Did Adam delete the other thread with the debate in it? I can't find it anymore.
    Yes. I did. I have no interest in feeding the pedantic narrative anymore.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Yes. I did. I have no interest in feeding the pedantic narrative anymore.
    But you were on track to beating manwittaplan’s hormone precursor shake thread...
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Yes. I did. I have no interest in feeding the pedantic narrative anymore.
    That strikes me as a little too sensitive. Just because he was disagreeing with you doesn't mean he was being deliberately pejorative or intentionally ad hoc.

    That was a good challenge to a very basic assumption and I was learning stuff I didn't previously know. Not trying to fire shots at all man, but it honestly looks like you must have started that thread for commiseration that the IG guy disagreed with you and then decided to delete it when that didn't pan out, not actually to see why that position has any validity.
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    But you were on track to beating manwittaplan’s hormone precursor shake thread...
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    Originally Posted by desslok View Post
    In the old days when exercise affected TDEE, we would recommend people use a multiplier against their BMR, based on activity and exercise level and frequency. Now that exercise no longer affects TDEE, should we just recommend people to use a multiplier of 1?
    Yes this is what we need to do. Studies have shown on the days I work 12 hours carrying and lifting stuff that I don't burn any extra calories
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    Originally Posted by safcpaul View Post
    Yes this is what we need to do. Studies have shown on the days I work 12 hours carrying and lifting stuff that I don't burn any extra calories
    I think the problem with looking at these studies and feeling it's a given that adding exercise will not increase TDEE is that we know nothing about the lifestyles of the participants outside the study-controlled variables of prescribed exercise and energy intake.

    The average sedentary American doesn't keep a close tab on steps/mileage walked, they don't self-regulate exercise intensity very well, and they're also terrible at ensuring their other daily activities remain constant despite adding the exercise in.

    But even then, I still find the outcomes surprising if not outright questionable.

    For example, if I work Monday - Friday and have a predictable schedule, I'd usually have a regular length of sleep, working hours/style, exercise, and leisure time.

    Within reason, the exercise would be displacing some of the leisure time unless something else changed... but I think it's reasonable to say it came from leisure time.


    If that time was just spent watching TV, then adding in 2 hours of walking or 1 hour of walking and 1 hour of weight training, I fail to see how someone would automatically down-regulate how much energy they burn while working, sleeping, etc to render that calorie burn ineffective on TDEE.

    An hour of walking usually burns something like 300 calories, and an hour of weights burns on average something like 150 calories.

    If this concept is true, we're saying that people somehow unconsciously reduce everything else by 450 calories at least? That's a big stretch to me....


    Not to mention, were they counting things like steps, or just the MEASURE/prescribed exercise? Who knows?
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Matt Fraser, who has won the Crossfit Games like 5 years in a row, recently said in an interview he was eating something like 6000-7000 calories a day during the competition due to his extremely high energy needs.

    After the competitions were done, he reduced his energy intake by like 3000-4000 a day because he wasn't doing hardly any activity at all by comparison.



    The guy is a complete moron.

    He should have just stayed at 6000-7000 calories since that is his TDEE.

    Why would it matter if he was barely training anymore? Surely his NEAT would compensate for the drop in exercise.
    Exactly mate. You were right in what you were saying. It's so simple yet somebody had to come in with studies to try and disprove what you're saying. Just trying to make themselves look clever
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Matt Fraser, who has won the Crossfit Games like 5 years in a row, recently said in an interview he was eating something like 6000-7000 calories a day during the competition due to his extremely high energy needs.

    After the competitions were done, he reduced his energy intake by like 3000-4000 a day because he wasn't doing hardly any activity at all by comparison.



    The guy is a complete moron.

    He should have just stayed at 6000-7000 calories since that is his TDEE.

    Why would it matter if he was barely training anymore? Surely his NEAT would compensate for the drop in exercise.
    I have doubled my step count (from 5000 to 10000 a day) and doubled my training volume and my TDEE has barely moved. Last year when I went from sedentary to 2-3 hours of cardio a week nothing at all happened with my TDEE - this is in line with what they also found in the randomized trial mrpb linked to in the other thread. But I am formerly obese, surely there may be some differences here between different subpopulations?
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    I have doubled my step count (from 5000 to 10000 a day) and doubled my training volume and my TDEE has barely moved. Last year when I went from sedentary to 2-3 hours of cardio a week nothing at all happened with my TDEE - this is in line with what they also found in the randomized trial mrpb linked to in the other thread. But I am formerly obese, surely there may be some differences here between different subpopulations?

    Well, I dunno what to say to that but, I have never had that experience.

    I recently stopped gaining weight on my bulk, and instead of adding food I decided to decrease exercise and keep everything else to same.

    Sure enough: I started gaining again.



    In the past, I've done the opposite: I've had period where I had to walk WAY more due to restrictions, etc, and I had to ADD food to avoid losing weight.



    I've said it before, not everyone will respond to the same degree, but just because the average in the study shows people respond one way doesn't mean everyone will. Studies will contain a range of outcomes/results.


    In your situation, I guess it's POSSIBLE that by adding 300-400 calories a day of exercise you just down-regulated by a huge degree, but that seems very rare to me... who knows.


    I am curious though, how do you know your TDEE didn't increase? What was the measurement you relied on?
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I am curious though, how do you know your TDEE didn't increase? What was the measurement you relied on?
    I am using linear regression on daily weight measurements over an extended period of time (1-2 months) to estimate it. Each weigh-in is done in the morning after peeing.

    It is still possible that it increased though. A possibility still on the table is that when I upped my calories the distribution of food items in my diet changed and there are more counting errors for the items added.

    Or my TDEE was reduced when I dropped from 180 to 175 lbs, and the exercise increase happened simultaneously, so that when I run the regression it seems like there is no effect on my TDEE even though there actually is one. I’ll need more data, maybe daily data for two more months, to be able to tell more for sure.

    But it cannot be a large increase at least, as that should have been noticeable by now...
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    I am using linear regression on daily weight measurements over an extended period of time (1-2 months) to estimate it. Each weigh-in is done in the morning after peeing.

    It is still possible that it increased though. A possibility still on the table is that when I upped my calories the distribution of food items in my diet changed and there are more counting errors for the items added.

    Or my TDEE was reduced when I dropped from 180 to 175 lbs, and the exercise increase happened simultaneously, so that when I run the regression it seems like there is no effect on my TDEE even though there actually is one. I’ll need more data, maybe daily data for two more months, to be able to tell more for sure.

    But it cannot be a large increase at least, as that should have been noticeable by now...
    Maybe im not following correctly.


    You lost weight... so, doesn't that mean your TDEE increased?
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Maybe im not following correctly.


    You lost weight... so, doesn't that mean your TDEE increased?
    For the last two months, I gained weight. The regression suggests a small surplus of 150-200 calories a day (and TDEE of 2650-2700) during this time period depending on where I set the cutoff.

    Prior to this period I was cutting and my TDEE was also estimated to 2650-2700. Back then I lost 1 lb a week or slightly more averaging 2150 calories a day. After I got to 175 lbs I upped my calories, upped my training volume and step count about simultaneously.

    It is possible that when I dropped to 175 lbs my BMR also dropped, so that in an alternate universe where I up my calories without changing my activity level, my TDEE would be lower. Suggesting that the activity increase actually does influence my TDEE, it is just that when things happen about simultaneously it’s hard to know what causes what. I don’t have a data set of weight measurements from the alternate universe where I don’t increase my activity level to compare with.
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    For the last two months, I gained weight. The regression suggests a small surplus of 150-200 calories a day (and TDEE of 2650-2700) during this time period depending on where I set the cutoff.

    Prior to this period I was cutting and my TDEE was also estimated to 2650-2700. Back then I lost 1 lb a week or slightly more averaging 2150 calories a day. After I got to 175 lbs I upped my calories, upped my training volume and step count about simultaneously.

    It is possible that when I dropped to 175 lbs my BMR also dropped, so that in an alternate universe where I up my calories without changing my activity level, my TDEE would be lower. Suggesting that the activity increase actually does influence my TDEE, it is just that when things happen about simultaneously it’s hard to know what causes what. I don’t have a data set of weight measurements from the alternate universe where I don’t increase my activity level to compare with.
    I guess I'd have to see more or know more about the controls in place.

    What really matters is your own ability to use the info to reach your goals.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I guess I'd have to see more or know more about the controls in place.

    What really matters is your own ability to use the info to reach your goals.
    I do suspect that there has been an increase in my TDEE it’s just not really noticeable in the data yet.

    But the randomized trial did make a lot of sense to me personally as I know it historically makes very little difference for me when I add or remove cardio or volume in the gym. But adding or removing calories works perfectly.
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    I do suspect that there has been an increase in my TDEE it’s just not really noticeable in the data yet.

    But the randomized trial did make a lot of sense to me personally as I know it historically makes very little difference for me when I add or remove cardio or volume in the gym. But adding or removing calories works perfectly.
    I guess we're all different!

    When I exercise more, my TDEE absolutely goes up. Without fail.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    When I exercise more, my TDEE absolutely goes up. Without fail.
    This. In my eating disorder recovery, time & again the best strategy for me to keep gaining was to sometimes reduce my activity when I hit a plateau. Similarly, when I fuked up and started losing weight in my eating disorder recovery, it was always because I added more activity in. This would happen if it were even just a few extra steps per day or even one extra workout per week. Further, I always instantly lose weight with even a marginal increase in physical activity. When I was at my most active, I simply couldn't keep weight on despite eating thousands upon thousands of calories. Way more than I do now. I've always been accused of having a "fast metabolism". I spose part of it must be that I don't down-regulate NEAT as much as others when I exercise. I also get VERY sweaty and fidgety when I'm in a surplus, so my NEAT of course goes up. The same could be said of whenI exercise less, but it definitely isn't enough to actually compensate for doing less activity.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    This. In my eating disorder recovery, time & again the best strategy for me to keep gaining was to sometimes reduce my activity when I hit a plateau. Similarly, when I fuked up and started losing weight in my eating disorder recovery, it was always because I added more activity in. This would happen if it were even just a few extra steps per day or even one extra workout per week. Further, I always instantly lose weight with even a marginal increase in physical activity. When I was at my most active, I simply couldn't keep weight on despite eating thousands upon thousands of calories. Way more than I do now. I've always been accused of having a "fast metabolism". I spose part of it must be that I don't down-regulate NEAT as much as others when I exercise. I also get VERY sweaty and fidgety when I'm in a surplus, so my NEAT of course goes up. The same could be said of whenI exercise less, but it definitely isn't enough to actually compensate for doing less activity.
    Interesting. The step increase is for me (mostly) a NEAT response to the additional calories and not conscious addition of exercise. Yet I don’t really notice a difference to my TDEE so maybe I downregulated something else - stopped masturbating perhaps?

    Or more seriously, maybe each step is less intense than before on average.

    Adding or subtracting calories for me results in predictable changes in my weight - the standard 3500 calories a pound rule works like a charm - but for exercise/activity the changes are much harder to predict and measure.
    Last edited by EiFit91; 06-12-2021 at 01:51 AM.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    Did Adam delete the other thread with the debate in it? I can't find it anymore.
    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    Same here, it seems to have disappeared?
    Originally Posted by cmacken View Post
    That's too bad if it did, it was an interesting thread, until it devolved into a soap opera on the last page.
    Yeah he deleted the thread. Personally I think it's not good forum behaviour to just delete a thread when you don't like the direction a discussion is going. Especially with other people adding good posts and learning from it.

    I still had the windows open so I was able to save the screenshots of the last posts that happened just before he decided to delete the thread.

    Last edited by Mrpb; 06-12-2021 at 03:10 AM.
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    Originally Posted by safcpaul View Post
    Exactly mate. You were right in what you were saying. It's so simple yet somebody had to come in with studies to try and disprove what you're saying. Just trying to make themselves look clever
    So I'm curious, I know of at least 4 studies that contradict some of Adam's claims in the OP of that thread. Do you think I should just keep my mouth shut? That doesn't make much sense to me.

    FYI, here are 4 studies in which adding exercise had no significant effect on TDEE.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32176862/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1443128/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10367718/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10211049/

    Obviously studies that show the opposite also exist. I know of at least 3.

    Perhaps interesting to note is of the above 4 studies 3 were in older people. Some researchers have speculated that the chance of large compensatory effects goes up by age. Could be true.

    As for your own personal example that you mentioned in the thread; keep in mind that Adam specified an example of only adding/light or moderate exercise in the OP. That was what I responded to. Other examples with much more exercise may be different, unless the compensatory response goes up as much too. I'm not sure if that happens, I haven't seen enough data on it.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 06-12-2021 at 03:16 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    ...
    EiFit91 had responded to one of your posts in the thread that Adam decided to delete. Here's the screenshot.

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    Originally Posted by GayCumLord View Post
    Producing more work without additional calorie burning is some dark magic sht
    Not really, it's actually quite simple. A lot of people who exercise more exert less energy during non exercise activities during that day. Quite often the compensatory effect is strong enough to cancel out the extra calories burned by the exercise. Doesn't happen always though, there are also studies in which adding exercise did lead to increased TDEE.

    Here's 4 studies in which adding exercise didn't lead to a statistically significant increase in TDEE.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32176862/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1443128/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10367718/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10211049/

    I know of 3 studies where the opposite happened. I expect there are several other studies for both sides.
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    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    That strikes me as a little too sensitive. Just because he was disagreeing with you doesn't mean he was being deliberately pejorative or intentionally ad hoc.
    Exactly! Well said.

    That was a good challenge to a very basic assumption and I was learning stuff I didn't previously know. Not trying to fire shots at all man, but it honestly looks like you must have started that thread for commiseration that the IG guy disagreed with you and then decided to delete it when that didn't pan out, not actually to see why that position has any validity.
    Yup. My impression exactly.

    Quote from one of your last posts in the deleted thread, where you were addressing Adam:

    Originally Posted by EliKoehn View Post
    But for real, this is a nutrition forum, so shouldn't that sort of thing be welcome? If everything was simply a reference to the stickies without meticulous discussion elaborating or challenging basic assumptions, why is there even a forum board where people contribute?
    You're on fire. Couldn't agree more.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    So I'm curious, I know of at least 4 studies that contradict some of Adam's claims in the OP of that thread. Do you think I should just keep my mouth shut? That doesn't make much sense to me.

    FYI, here are 4 studies in which adding exercise had no significant effect on TDEE.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32176862/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1443128/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10367718/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10211049/

    Obviously studies that show the opposite also exist. I know of at least 3.

    As for your own personal example that you mentioned in the thread; keep in mind that Adam specified an example of only adding/light or moderate exercise in the OP. That was what I responded to. Other examples with much more exercise may be different, unless the compensatory response goes up as much too. I'm not sure if that happens, I haven't seen enough data on it.
    You're entitled to your opinion and so am I. My personal opinion is that I disagree with you completely. You add exercise to anybody's daily routine and 9 times out of 10 that person's maintenance calories will increase. No study in the world is going to change my mind on that. My own experiences and experiences of many others back this up. Even if it is only mild/moderate exercise, in my opinion most people would end up increasing activity in their daily life rather than decreasing it due to become fitter and having more energy thus their maintenance calories increasing even further
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    Originally Posted by safcpaul View Post
    You're entitled to your opinion and so am I. My personal opinion is that I disagree with you completely. You add exercise to anybody's daily routine and 9 times out of 10 that person's maintenance calories will increase. No study in the world is going to change my mind on that.
    Ok man, in that case we're better off not continuing discussion about it.
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