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  1. #1
    Formerly grouchyjarhead GrouchyUSMC's Avatar
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    Georgia police department starts "shoot to incapacitate" program

    https://www.ajc.com/news/crime/in-ge...KPFHLEXQ672YI/

    Although well intentioned, anyone with an ounce of firearms training is going to see some serious flaws with this. Not to mention liability purposes.

    This Chief is going to get someone killed.
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    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Many years ago used to be able to get a big revolver that when you pulled the trigger it popped out of the barrel and unwound a sign that said BANG!
    Why don't police depts use them as they will not risk death and unnecessary injuries when people are "shot". Maybe that comes next?

    Edit: sorry that link is blocked in EU region (inc UK), possibly to stop subversive communists like me reading it
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    Originally Posted by GrouchyUSMC View Post
    https://www.ajc.com/news/crime/in-ge...KPFHLEXQ672YI/

    Although well intentioned, anyone with an ounce of firearms training is going to see some serious flaws with this. Not to mention liability purposes.

    This Chief is going to get someone killed.

    Agreed
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    You gotta be kidding me!

    LMAO.

    This is a result of years of political correctness marxist goat$hit.
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    Registered User sakustoms's Avatar
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    So is this the new "shoot them in the dick/pussy" theory? SMH

    So all the "center mass" shooting training they've done is now out the window. Wonder how many officers will be wounded or killed trying to shoot a moving target in the arm or leg... Who in their right mind would want to be a police officer anymore?
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    Originally Posted by sakustoms View Post
    So is this the new "shoot them in the dick/pussy" theory? SMH

    So all the "center mass" shooting training they've done is now out the window. Wonder how many officers will be wounded or killed trying to shoot a moving target in the arm or leg... Who in their right mind would want to be a police officer anymore?
    Not to mention all of the innocent bystanders that could get wounded or killed.
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    Registered User sakustoms's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by xTeTe View Post
    Not to mention all of the innocent bystanders that could get wounded or killed.
    Nah man, haven't you ever watched the movies? Innocent bystanders never get shot. Just the bad guys. I'm sure everything will be ok. /sarc

    This world has already gone to hell in the proverbial hand basket. I tell people all the time that I am happy to be on the way out as opposed to on the way in.

    I feel bad for my kids and grandkids who will have to deal with this crap and way more in their lifetimes.
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    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sakustoms View Post
    Nah man, haven't you ever watched the movies?...
    The hero can shot a pistol or machete out of the baddies hand without harming them
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    Formerly grouchyjarhead GrouchyUSMC's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    You gotta be kidding me!

    LMAO.

    This is a result of years of political correctness marxist goat$hit.
    Yeah, this is insane. I don't even know where to begin with this nonsense.

    First off, whoever titled this is an idiot. The whole purpose of firearms training for law enforcement is to stop the threat, not just kill them. My beloved Corps is the one shooting to kill.

    The firearms training being displayed is subpar at best. They're a small department from the looks of it, so I get it, but unless your officers are serious shooters they are going to struggle with shot placement in specific zones. That's a huge target and there's a lot of shots in the white. Even the guy who claims to train all the time has some really bad habits with his draw. All this does is open the department to a lawsuit - "You said you taught your officers to shoot to incapacitate, but that officer only shot him in the center mass!" Which the officer will do because they're going to go back to what works.

    "Shoot and assess" is an old outdated method that got people killed. You shoot until the target is down. They have rotating targets in the video, so someone somewhere down the line understood that concept. If they really wanted to go with this idea, it should be in the form of a Non-Standard Response Drill with a rotating target. Start shooting in that green zone and walk your way up towards the red zone until the target goes down. Doing two to the green zone, reassess, two to center mass, reassess, and one to the head may work on slow zombies but not on a live human being.

    Their argument that every officer carries a tourniquet and QuikClot which will help reduce deaths from lower body shots will also reduce them from center mass shots, so that point is moot. If it gets to the point where you need to use your firearm, everything else is out the window at that point because it's the time for deadly force.

    This Chief is an idiot, and any of his officers who didn't oppose this idea is an idiot with him.
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    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    So you have a department of elite sharpshooters who can hit someone in the femoral artery every shot, does that help?
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    Formerly grouchyjarhead GrouchyUSMC's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    So you have a department of elite sharpshooters who can hit someone in the femoral artery every shot, does that help?
    I think you mean avoid the artery. The femoral artery is one of the main ones in your body, if it gets hit you have less than a minute to get a tourniquet on before you lose so much blood you pass out. Maybe 1-2 minutes after that you're dead.

    And no, because human beings are amazingly tough. There are many many accounts of guys getting chewed up by bullets but still fighting. Here's one example. This officer shot at this guy eight times before he fell over, and the man was then shot and killed by backup officers before he could hit the officer in the video with his machete.

    Last edited by GrouchyUSMC; 05-14-2021 at 03:10 AM.
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    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    I did mean to write to hit it, but that was because I was being sarcastic and childish (as I often am).

    Edit: did I count right, at the time the officer trips, 9 shots had already been fired. I know it's always easy to be an armchair critic and life is very different with adrenaline and confusion, but a lot of rounds were flying about and not sure any landed on target at that point. How ooften do LAPD officers attend firearm training/range?
    Last edited by OldFartTom; 05-14-2021 at 01:55 AM.
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    Formerly grouchyjarhead GrouchyUSMC's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    I did mean to write to hit it, but that was because I was being sarcastic and childish (as I often am).

    Edit: did I count right, at the time the officer trips, 9 shots had already been fired. I know it's always easy to be an armchair critic and life is very different with adrenaline and confusion, but a lot of rounds were flying about and not sure any landed on target at that point. How ooften do LAPD officers attend firearm training/range?
    I can't find how many times he was hit, but you can see him flinching a few times so he was hit a couple times at least. People are much tougher than Hollywood would lead you to believe.

    MSG Roy Benavidez was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions in Vietnam. He had a total of 37 wounds from bullets, bayonets, and shrapnel yet still did this.

    Master Sergeant (then Staff Sergeant) Roy P. BENAVIDEZ United States Army, distinguished himself by a series of daring and extremely valorous actions on 2 May 1968 while assigned to Detachment B56, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne), 1st Special Forces, Republic of Vietnam.

    On the morning of 2 May 1968, a 12-man Special Forces Reconnaissance Team was inserted by helicopters of the 240th Assault Helicopter Company in a dense jungle area west of Loc Ninh, Vietnam to gather intelligence information about confirmed large-scale enemy activity. This area was controlled and routinely patrolled by the North Vietnamese Army. After a short period of time on the ground, the team met heavy enemy resistance, and requested emergency extraction. Three helicopters attempted extraction, but were unable to land due to intense enemy small arms and anti-aircraft fire.

    Sergeant BENAVIDEZ was at the Forward Operating Base in Loc Ninh monitoring the operation by radio when these helicopters, of the 240th Assault Helicopter Company, returned to off-load wounded crew members and to assess aircraft damage. Sergeant BENAVIDEZ voluntarily boarded a returning aircraft to assist in another extraction attempt. Realizing that all the team members were either dead or wounded and unable to move to the pickup zone, he directed the aircraft to a nearby clearing where he jumped from the hovering helicopter, and ran approximately 75 meters under withering small arms fire to the crippled team.

    Prior to reaching the team's position he was wounded in his right leg, face, and head. Despite these painful injuries, he took charge, repositioning the team members and directing their fire to facilitate the landing of an extraction aircraft, and the loading of wounded and dead team members. He then threw smoke canisters to direct the aircraft to the team's position. Despite his severe wounds and under intense enemy fire, he carried and dragged half of the wounded team members to the awaiting aircraft. He then provided protective fire by running alongside the aircraft as it moved to pick up the remaining team members. As the enemy's fire intensified, he hurried to recover the body and classified documents on the dead team leader.

    When he reached the leader's body, Sergeant BENAVIDEZ was severely wounded by small arms fire in the abdomen and grenade fragments in his back. At nearly the same moment, the aircraft pilot was mortally wounded, and his helicopter crashed. Although in extremely critical condition due to his multiple wounds, Sergeant BENAVIDEZ secured the classified documents and made his way back to the wreckage, where he aided the wounded out of the overturned aircraft, and gathered the stunned survivors into a defensive perimeter. Under increasing enemy automatic weapons and grenade fire, he moved around the perimeter distributing water and ammunition to his weary men, reinstilling in them a will to live and fight. Facing a buildup of enemy opposition with a beleaguered team, Sergeant BENAVIDEZ mustered his strength, began calling in tactical air strikes and directed the fire from supporting gunships to suppress the enemy's fire and so permit another extraction attempt.

    He was wounded again in his thigh by small arms fire while administering first aid to a wounded team member just before another extraction helicopter was able to land. His indomitable spirit kept him going as he began to ferry his comrades to the craft. On his second trip with the wounded, he was clubbed from behind by an enemy soldier. In the ensuing hand-to-hand combat, he sustained additional wounds to his head and arms before killing his adversary.[6][note 1] He then continued under devastating fire to carry the wounded to the helicopter. Upon reaching the aircraft, he spotted and killed two enemy soldiers who were rushing the craft from an angle that prevented the aircraft door gunner from firing upon them. With little strength remaining, he made one last trip to the perimeter to ensure that all classified material had been collected or destroyed, and to bring in the remaining wounded.

    Only then, in extremely serious condition from numerous wounds and loss of blood, did he allow himself to be pulled into the extraction aircraft. Sergeant BENAVIDEZ' gallant choice to join voluntarily his comrades who were in critical straits, to expose himself constantly to withering enemy fire, and his refusal to be stopped despite numerous severe wounds, saved the lives of at least eight men. His fearless personal leadership, tenacious devotion to duty, and extremely valorous actions in the face of overwhelming odds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflect the utmost credit on him and the United States Army.[7]
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    Registered User sakustoms's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    The hero can shot a pistol or machete out of the baddies hand without harming them
    And in extreme cases the bad guy can cut the bullet in half without missing a beat. LOL
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    Originally Posted by GrouchyUSMC View Post
    I think you mean avoid the artery. The femoral artery is one of the main ones in your body, if it gets hit you have less than a minute to get a tourniquet on before you lose so much blood you pass out. Maybe 1-2 minutes after that you're dead.

    And no, because human beings are amazingly tough. There are many many accounts of guys getting chewed up by bullets but still fighting. Here's one example. This officer shot at this guy eight times before he fell over, and the man was then shot and killed by backup officers before he could hit the officer in the video with his machete.

    This is why the 45ACP was developed. To kill drugged up Filipino muslims who macheted American troops during the Philippine-American War to death after being riddled multiple times with 38.





    BTRW, I wonder where Matt is? He is probably orgasming at the idea of shooting bad guys in the legs instead of killing them.
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    Crawling back under rock OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Wow Grouchy, I'd expect a heroic story to be... well.. heroic, but ******* **** that guy must have been a terminator robot! I'm not sure what is the most heroic story I've ever heard, but that one's in the running for sure

    NG, I had no idea of the history of 45ACP, thanks for that video. I'd always been fed the idea that 9mm had enough stopping power at close range and wasn't likely to carry on through people/objects too often and you could carry more rounds so was ideal for several reasons. I've never done anything exciting myself but I used to know someone who concealed carry in his work (in UK that is absolutely exceptional and they have to be signed out/in at certain police station, inc the rounds). Anyway.. AFAIK every London (met) police pistol for that use are 9mm (Glock). The 2 vids above make me think maybe this isn't ideal? Edit: for clarity, he wasn't in the police, what the police use themselves I don't know
    Last edited by OldFartTom; 05-14-2021 at 08:03 AM.
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    The caliber debate will rage on and certainly not be solved here! :P
    I carried 9mm for a long time. I still like it a lot for being easy to shoot under stress and having a lot of rounds.
    Personally I find my sweet spot in 40 S&W now and train with it enough to be comfortable under stress.
    .45 is actually fairly easy to shoot and feels great, but I don't like how few rounds I can carry and in the end the data out there doesn't support the idea that it really truly has that much more stopping power.
    As the adage goes, shoot what you feel comfortable with. If you really need more stopping power go with a 10mm or other 'bear' guns - or better yet a shotgun or other long weapon.

    That said, on topic - gun basics being if you pull out your gun it should only be with the preparation to kill (as several here have said). You can use other tactics to subdue or incapacitate a bad guy. Guns are the last resort and I will only pull mine out to save a life and/or end the bad guy's.
    Why NOT?

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    Originally Posted by GrouchyUSMC View Post
    Yeah, this is insane. I don't even know where to begin with this nonsense.

    First off, whoever titled this is an idiot. The whole purpose of firearms training for law enforcement is to stop the threat, not just kill them. My beloved Corps is the one shooting to kill.

    The firearms training being displayed is subpar at best. They're a small department from the looks of it, so I get it, but unless your officers are serious shooters they are going to struggle with shot placement in specific zones. That's a huge target and there's a lot of shots in the white. Even the guy who claims to train all the time has some really bad habits with his draw. All this does is open the department to a lawsuit - "You said you taught your officers to shoot to incapacitate, but that officer only shot him in the center mass!" Which the officer will do because they're going to go back to what works.

    "Shoot and assess" is an old outdated method that got people killed. You shoot until the target is down. They have rotating targets in the video, so someone somewhere down the line understood that concept. If they really wanted to go with this idea, it should be in the form of a Non-Standard Response Drill with a rotating target. Start shooting in that green zone and walk your way up towards the red zone until the target goes down. Doing two to the green zone, reassess, two to center mass, reassess, and one to the head may work on slow zombies but not on a live human being.

    Their argument that every officer carries a tourniquet and QuikClot which will help reduce deaths from lower body shots will also reduce them from center mass shots, so that point is moot. If it gets to the point where you need to use your firearm, everything else is out the window at that point because it's the time for deadly force.

    This Chief is an idiot, and any of his officers who didn't oppose this idea is an idiot with him.
    Grouchy thanks for sharing, although I'd quibble with the idea that stopping is the objective - which you illustrated well with both the fact that shot placement under stress is unrealistic, as well as the fact that people can do amazing things sometimes. If an LE is pulling out his/her gun it should be shoot to kill (yes, that's not the desired outcome - stopping the bad guy is - but if the gun is out then death is gonna happen).
    Why NOT?

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    Trying to hit the high A on centermass with a 9mm is a challenge in itself. Trying to guarantee you can hit a leg without missing is a task not suited to many. If they honestly believe they can teach PO's to do this and that they can do it under pressure of being killed themselves is delusional.

    My personal opinion only I know.

    But I totally agree, if you pull out a fire arm the intent is not to hurt someone, but to stop them, categorically stop them.
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    Had to qualify on the 9mm for many years, I have seen people hit the target in the legs many times. Never on purpose though. I may or may not have been one of those people.
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Wow Grouchy, I'd expect a heroic story to be... well.. heroic, but ******* **** that guy must have been a terminator robot! I'm not sure what is the most heroic story I've ever heard, but that one's in the running for sure
    Absolutely amazing guy. Here's a speech he did talking about that time, it's even more incredible when you hear it from him. He is a humble warrior for sure.



    As for caliber, I will actually say it depends. Shot placement is probably a lot more important than caliber size. You ultimately want the biggest caliber you can aim accurately and effectively, but if you focus only on larger ones you may sacrifice accuracy overall. .40 seems to be about the sweet spot for me personally.
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    The hero can shot a pistol or machete out of the baddies hand without harming them
    Why would they need to shoot a peaceful knife out of anyone's hand when stabbings of peace are something that everyone did with their friends as kids?
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    Howdy forumites.....

    Lots of interesting opinions on this subject.

    Have a great day....and do carry on.
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    Originally Posted by mtpockets View Post
    Had to qualify on the 9mm for many years, I have seen people hit the target in the legs many times. Never on purpose though. I may or may not have been one of those people.
    I carried an M4 until I retired because I cannot hit water from a canoe with a hand gun. No amount of training can help me. If I ever get into a gun fight and all I have is a handgun I am running straight at the fukcers until I am close enough to hit them, so say 20 feet. I am counting on the shock value of me running directly at them screaming "Major Paine" quotes being strong enough to carry the fight. Not even kidding.
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    Originally Posted by eomrat View Post
    I carried an M4 until I retired because I cannot hit water from a canoe with a hand gun. No amount of training can help me. If I ever get into a gun fight and all I have is a handgun I am running straight at the fukcers until I am close enough to hit them, so say 20 feet. I am counting on the shock value of me running directly at them screaming "Major Paine" quotes being strong enough to carry the fight. Not even kidding.
    I am fairly decent with larger caliber and framed handguns, .357 revolver, .45 ACP 1911, .45 Colt in a Ruger blackhawk are a few. But with the smaller concealable ones such as Ruger LC9 or anything like that i'm better off throwing the gun at them. With any of my rifles except for the $hitty SKS I can peg a flys ass at 100+ yds easily.
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    Originally Posted by eomrat View Post
    I carried an M4 until I retired because I cannot hit water from a canoe with a hand gun. No amount of training can help me. If I ever get into a gun fight and all I have is a handgun I am running straight at the fukcers until I am close enough to hit them, so say 20 feet. I am counting on the shock value of me running directly at them screaming "Major Paine" quotes being strong enough to carry the fight. Not even kidding.
    While I can't picture the actual face, I'm going with the Commander bad dude from Avatar and visualizing a world of fuking pain for would be assailant.
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    Originally Posted by eomrat View Post
    I carried an M4 until I retired because I cannot hit water from a canoe with a hand gun. No amount of training can help me. If I ever get into a gun fight and all I have is a handgun I am running straight at the fukcers until I am close enough to hit them, so say 20 feet. I am counting on the shock value of me running directly at them screaming "Major Paine" quotes being strong enough to carry the fight. Not even kidding.
    LMAO too funny, I hear ya though, a lot of us in that boat.
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