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  1. #1
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    HMB as substitute for extra protein?

    There is data showing that HMB is good for cutting, mostly in beginners. 3 grams is optimal for someone who is 200 pounds.

    Studies without HMB say that to lose 1% of your body weight as fat each week, you need at least 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, or something high like that. Maybe 2 grams per lean pound or something. As you get leaner, you need even more protein, and to slow down the fat loss.

    I'd like to get more variety in my diet, with all my calories being limited for my cut. All those scopes of protein cut into my variety. I'd like to eat some oatmeal and sweet potatos and such.

    So, my question is how much HMB can reduce the amount of protein I need. I'm 163 pounds, 25% body fat, eating 120 grams of protein per day, and taking 3 grams of HMB per day. I wonder if the HMB will make up for an extra 40 grams of protein. The articles I read say this is uncharted territory. I guess I could just eat 40 more grams and go burn 160 more calories at the gym to play it safe. What do you think?
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  2. #2
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    I just read more studies. Carbs spare muscle better than fat does. I realize that is worthless info without knowing the exact numbers tested. I should say I read summaries of studies.

    Some researchers housed a bunch of obese people and started them on 2700 calories and then dropped them to 1800 calories. They had hoses hooked up to their faces so they could measure CO2 to see how much burning was going on, and they measured their urine for nitrogen to see how much muscle was lost. One group was low fat, and the other was higher fat. The summary did not say exact numbers. But in a week, the low fat group lost a pound of fat, and the higher fat group lost only half a pound of fat. Did they have a lower base metabolism on higher fat, or did they burn more muscle?


    Matches my own knowledge. When you burn fat, you need 25-75% of the energy to come from carbs, or else your body will take the difference from protein. Make sure you get enough carbs to fill that need, especially during exercise. But don't eat candy bars and such, as they dump sugar into the blood faster than the glycogen can load it up, and the over flow goes into fat reserves.
    Also, if you eat fat, either it goes into fat reserves, or it gets burned. I'd father burn fat from my fat reserves.


    If I were obese, I'd use my intuition and try to lose 2 pounds per week, maybe more if I could burn it at the gym. Since I can hit my first goal in 10 weeks by doing 1.5 pounds per week, I guess there is no need to risk losing muscle just to save 2 weeks.

    I do plan to avoid the 0.4g of fat per pound of body weight rule. I think that assumes a mixture of nuts and oils and need to get enough essential fatty acids. I've bought seeds and oils that are high in essential fatty acids. So I plan to get by on just 15% of calories from fat. Maybe 10%. However, I realize that even if I maintain steady state fatty acid intake, any muscle recycling could burn fats in the muscle and require me to have even more essential fatty acids than normal. So for that reason, I am exceeding the minimum RDA for essential fatty acids and will likely shoot for 10%. They are more needed for building muscle.
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  3. #3
    Registered User EiFit91's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    There is data showing that HMB is good for cutting, mostly in beginners. 3 grams is optimal for someone who is 200 pounds.

    Studies without HMB say that to lose 1% of your body weight as fat each week, you need at least 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, or something high like that. Maybe 2 grams per lean pound or something. As you get leaner, you need even more protein, and to slow down the fat loss.

    I'd like to get more variety in my diet, with all my calories being limited for my cut. All those scopes of protein cut into my variety. I'd like to eat some oatmeal and sweet potatos and such.

    So, my question is how much HMB can reduce the amount of protein I need. I'm 163 pounds, 25% body fat, eating 120 grams of protein per day, and taking 3 grams of HMB per day. I wonder if the HMB will make up for an extra 40 grams of protein. The articles I read say this is uncharted territory. I guess I could just eat 40 more grams and go burn 160 more calories at the gym to play it safe. What do you think?
    What's your height? Unless you are very short, if you are really 25% BF I'd probably worry just as much about lack of muscle as excess fat, so you shouldn't think about a massive deficit as you will just end up extremely skinny with little muscle.
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  4. #4
    Registered User Darkius's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EiFit91 View Post
    What's your height? Unless you are very short, if you are really 25% BF I'd probably worry just as much about lack of muscle as excess fat, so you shouldn't think about a massive deficit as you will just end up extremely skinny with little muscle.
    5'8". Yes, some lack of muscle compared to some people.




    I found numerous anti carb diet studies. They all use weight loss as the metric, showing that low carb high fat diets lead to more weight loss if calories are restricted. This is what I would expect. They are losing muscle. The studies never look at how much body fat is lost, only how much body weight is lost. The anti carb diets did find however that when subjects were allowed to eat as much as they wanted and voluntarily diet on their honor, the low fat high carb diet group lost more weight than the high fat low carb group. That is also what I would expect. Subjects were usually obese, and carb fat ratios were usually compared at the extremes 25/75. Protein in both groups is usually 15%. So not ideal diets either way.

    I'm going to say there is not enough info on whether more carbs and less fat could let me cut faster safely. I'll just stick to losing 1% per week, the tried and true. The stakes are too high otherwise, with the risk of losing lots of muscle at just 1.4% weight loss. I do plan to drop below 0.4g/lb dietary fat and have more carbs though. And I'm still thinking of just eating 120 grams of protein and hoping HMB makes up for the rest. I'll up the protein though when I get below 15% body fat. I'd just like to eat more real food and less powder if I can. Vitamins matter too, and not all vitamins have been discovered yet.
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  5. #5
    Registered User EiFit91's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Darkius View Post
    5'8". Yes, some lack of muscle compared to some people.




    I found numerous anti carb diet studies. They all use weight loss as the metric, showing that low carb high fat diets lead to more weight loss if calories are restricted. This is what I would expect. They are losing muscle. The studies never look at how much body fat is lost, only how much body weight is lost. The anti carb diets did find however that when subjects were allowed to eat as much as they wanted and voluntarily diet on their honor, the low fat high carb diet group lost more weight than the high fat low carb group. That is also what I would expect. Subjects were usually obese, and carb fat ratios were usually compared at the extremes 25/75. Protein in both groups is usually 15%. So not ideal diets either way.

    I'm going to say there is not enough info on whether more carbs and less fat could let me cut faster safely. I'll just stick to losing 1% per week, the tried and true. The stakes are too high otherwise, with the risk of losing lots of muscle at just 1.4% weight loss. I do plan to drop below 0.4g/lb dietary fat and have more carbs though. And I'm still thinking of just eating 120 grams of protein and hoping HMB makes up for the rest. I'll up the protein though when I get below 15% body fat. I'd just like to eat more real food and less powder if I can. Vitamins matter too, and not all vitamins have been discovered yet.
    Instead of going for such a quick cut, why not lose weight slowly and build muscle along the way? If you are new to weight training that should not be too hard, and will be easier to stick to than a rapid weight loss plan.
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