View Poll Results: DL End weight?

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  • Under 200 lbs

    0 0%
  • 200-250 lbs

    1 16.67%
  • 250-300 lbs

    1 16.67%
  • 300-400 lbs

    2 33.33%
  • 400-500 lbs

    1 16.67%
  • Over 500 lbs

    1 16.67%
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  1. #1
    Registered User Sun tzu's Avatar
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    What was your end weight on the deadlift on starting strength?

    Please, only answer the poll, if:

    1. You are a man.
    2. If you started the program after your were 18.
    3. If you finished the program before you were 50.
    4. You stalled at least twice on the DL.
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  2. #2
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    how are 2-4 relevant in any way?
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  3. #3
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    I think a person's bodyweight would be more relevant.
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  4. #4
    Time is Muscle ECGordyn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sun tzu View Post
    Please, only answer the poll, if:

    1. You are a man.
    2. If you started the program after your were 18.
    3. If you finished the program before you were 50.
    4. You stalled at least twice on the DL.
    Seems like a very limited demographic. You might do better opening it to everyone who ran SL, and just asking them to answer some extra questions.
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  5. #5
    Weak and foolish OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Doesn't this fairly much replicate another recent thread on SS?
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  6. #6
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Doesn't this fairly much replicate another recent thread on SS?
    What was your end weight on the squat after finishing Starting Strength?

    Seems like OP's been doing SS a dozen years ago as well. I would suggest he expand his horizons a bit.
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  7. #7
    Registered User hardyboysare's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Doesn't this fairly much replicate another recent thread on SS?
    ^^

    This I imagine it will be the same conclusion from the OP based on his previous statement that Rippetoe is scamming everyone and is full of bs.

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    Edit:- TolerantLactose beat me to it
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  8. #8
    Registered User Sun tzu's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    how are 2-4 relevant in any way?
    2)...because oftentimes a 10-year-old would find it hard to reach the same weights as an adult
    4)...just to ensure they really put the effort in
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  9. #9
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    If you hate SS so much why not just do something crazy like, I dunno, running something else? What do you hope to achieve in these threads? Validation for your weak lifts?
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  10. #10
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
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    I never understood Rip’s reasoning behind many things like:

    -his “jump and shrug” power cleans
    -calling OHP “the press” like its 1960 again
    -His hate for trap bars
    -His hate for face pulls
    -His hate for Ab work (he has since relaxed on this one a little though)
    -His crappy nutrition advice (gallon of milk/day)
    -His insistence on the conventional deadlift in lieu of more complete hip hinges, like RDL
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  11. #11
    Weak and foolish OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    ^^

    This I imagine it will be the same conclusion from the OP based on his previous statement that Rippetoe is scamming everyone and is full of bs.

    https://igoodies.000webhostapp.com/?viagra=showt...post1600275101

    Edit:- TolerantLactose beat me to it
    Yeah but just grumbling without listening to others is really good fun. Let's have this duplicate thread
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  12. #12
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sun tzu View Post
    Please, only answer the poll, if:

    1. You are a man.
    2. If you started the program after your were 18.
    3. If you finished the program before you were 50.
    4. You stalled at least twice on the DL.
    5. You haven't been running the program for 10+ years straight.
    I can tell time. Time cannot tell me.

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  13. #13
    Weak and foolish OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Keeps asking the same question until eventually people might give up and just agree. Sun Tzu, you're not related to my wife, are you??
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  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    I never understood Rip’s reasoning behind many things like:

    -his “jump and shrug” power cleans
    -calling OHP “the press” like its 1960 again
    -His hate for trap bars
    -His hate for face pulls
    -His hate for Ab work (he has since relaxed on this one a little though)
    -His crappy nutrition advice (gallon of milk/day)
    -His insistence on the conventional deadlift in lieu of more complete hip hinges, like RDL
    The term overhead press refers to any overhead movement. Why would it not? I could see how you may say that jerks aren't a press, but a push-press is definitely an overhead press. Saying "the press" is a clear way to refer a specific exercise.

    His crappy nutrition advice bothers me too.

    The RDL is a more complete hip-hinge than the dead-lift? It's a more pure one maybe. Don't see how you would say it's more "complete."
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  15. #15
    Registered User BeginnerGainz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 360365LAWS View Post
    The term overhead press refers to any overhead movement. Why would it not? I could see how you may say that jerks aren't a press, but a push-press is definitely an overhead press. Saying "the press" is a clear way to refer a specific exercise.

    His crappy nutrition advice bothers me too.

    The RDL is a more complete hip-hinge than the dead-lift? It's a more pure one maybe. Don't see how you would say it's more "complete."
    1.Calling it “the press” sounds silly and dated to me, but that is a personal gripe. Everyone else refers to “the press” as OHP here, that I’ve noticed. As far as RDLs go

    2.Because it has an eccentric component? Because it has a FAR greater ROM? Because people tend not to load them up with more weight then they can handle with good form?

    3.Deadlifts are overrated. If you’re not training in powerlifting, don’t do them. There are far better exercises out there.
    Last edited by BeginnerGainz; 06-01-2020 at 05:46 PM.
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  16. #16
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    1.Calling it “the press” sounds silly and dated to me, but that is a personal gripe. Everyone else refers to “the press” as OHP here, that I’ve noticed. As far as RDLs go

    2.Because it has an eccentric component? Because it has a FAR greater ROM? Because people tend not to load them up with more weight then they can handle with good form?

    3.Deadlifts are overrated. If you’re not training in powerlifting, don’t do them. There are far better exercises out there.
    The traditional DL is a perfectly good exercise - as are RDLs. Lifting the bar off the ground each rep doesn't make it less complete necessarily, in fact it works the whole body more completely. Everyone has preferences so it really depends on what you're looking for, but there's a place for either or both in a good program, powerlifter or not.

    Also, the fact that many people don't practice proper form with a particular exercise isn't the exercise's fault IMO. The DL is your friend even if you don't like him.
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  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    The traditional DL is a perfectly good exercise - as are RDLs. Lifting the bar off the ground each rep doesn't make it less complete necessarily, in fact it works the whole body more completely. Everyone has preferences so it really depends on what you're looking for, but there's a place for either or both in a good program, powerlifter or not.

    Also, the fact that many people don't practice proper form with a particular exercise isn't the exercise's fault IMO. The DL is your friend even if you don't like him.
    YMMV, but the deadlift isn’t irreplaceable, it’s exactly the opposite. Hence why so many people (myself included) didn’t have to deadlift to get a bigger deadlift. Squats, a better hip hinge and a pulling exercise (be it rows, high pulls, etc) beat out a deadlift any day, and these are exercises you should already be doing anyway.
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    The traditional DL is a perfectly good exercise - as are RDLs. Lifting the bar off the ground each rep doesn't make it less complete necessarily, in fact it works the whole body more completely. Everyone has preferences so it really depends on what you're looking for, but there's a place for either or both in a good program, powerlifter or not.
    Yes.

    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    As far as RDLs go

    2.Because it has an eccentric component? Because it has a FAR greater ROM? Because people tend not to load them up with more weight then they can handle with good form?

    3.Deadlifts are overrated. If you’re not training in powerlifting, don’t do them. There are far better exercises out there.
    Deadlifts have an eccentric component if you don't drop the weight. It's actually better training to do a controlled eccentric because you have to maintain form on the way down. Powerlifting competitions require a controlled eccentric for a good lift.

    How does RDL have a greater ROM? I understand that distance traveled by the bar isn't the same thing as range of motion, because ROM depends on joint movement. But in RDL you're limited by hamstring flexibility, and thus can't go all the way down. In DL, your hams are firing from the second you start the lift until the second you set the weight down. Yes, your quads work a bit too at the bottom, but your hams and glutes are (or should) be firing from the very start until the lockout, and then back down.

    Deadlifts and/or RDL are perfectly ok to do in any program, and there are many benefits to doing both of those exercises. DL isn't required by any means, but beginners should certainly stay open to training them and decide for themselves later how DLs fit into their training, or not.
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post
    Yes.



    Deadlifts have an eccentric component if you don't drop the weight. It's actually better training to do a controlled eccentric because you have to maintain form on the way down. Powerlifting competitions require a controlled eccentric for a good lift.

    How does RDL have a greater ROM? I understand that distance traveled by the bar isn't the same thing as range of motion, because ROM depends on joint movement. But in RDL you're limited by hamstring flexibility, and thus can't go all the way down. In DL, your hams are firing from the second you start the lift until the second you set the weight down. Yes, your quads work a bit too at the bottom, but your hams and glutes are (or should) be firing from the very start until the lockout, and then back down.

    Deadlifts and/or RDL are perfectly ok to do in any program, and there are many benefits to doing both of those exercises. DL isn't required by any means, but beginners should certainly stay open to training them and decide for themselves later how DLs fit into their training, or not.
    I should be a little more clear on my position.

    As a beginner, by all means, learn the deadlift. Do 1x5 as prescribed in most LP programs. But when you start getting up there in numbers, mid-to-high 300s, 400s, what little control you have over that bars descent diminishes greatly, because of the energy requires to lift the weight in the first place. Hence my observation that form starts to suffer at higher weights, or when someone tries to lift something they can’t with good form to begin with.

    Also, I find RDLs (and good mornings, loved doing good mornings with my SSB) actually help with hamstring flexibility because of the stretch they get. I’ve noticed the same thing with reverse planks which I recently worked my way up to.

    And most federations rules I’ve ever seen require the bar to be lowered under control as in, not dropped from the top. Never have I seen it written it has to be a controlled eccentric. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
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  20. #20
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    I should be a little more clear on my position.

    As a beginner, by all means, learn the deadlift. Do 1x5 as prescribed in most LP programs. But when you start getting up there in numbers, mid-to-high 300s, 400s, what little control you have over that bars descent diminishes greatly, because of the energy requires to lift the weight in the first place. Hence my observation that form starts to suffer at higher weights, or when someone tries to lift something they can’t with good form to begin with.

    Also, I find RDLs (and good mornings, loved doing good mornings with my SSB) actually help with hamstring flexibility because of the stretch they get. I’ve noticed the same thing with reverse planks which I recently worked my way up to.

    And most federations rules I’ve ever seen require the bar to be lowered under control as in, not dropped from the top. Never have I seen it written it has to be a controlled eccentric. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
    Right, most federation rules specify a controlled descent until the bar is motionless on the floor. It might be called a "controlled drop" or a "fast eccentric," but it's definitely an eccentric component even if it goes very fast. Your muscles are working to control that descent, whereas in a drop they don't work at all.

    Yes beginners (and all lifters) should be controlling the weight they move. If their form suffers, then they're going a bit too heavy.

    What about SLDL, do you think RDL is superior to SLDL?
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post
    Right, most federation rules specify a controlled descent until the bar is motionless on the floor. It might be called a "controlled drop" or a "fast eccentric," but it's definitely an eccentric component even if it goes very fast. Your muscles are working to control that descent, whereas in a drop they don't work at all.

    Yes beginners (and all lifters) should be controlling the weight they move. If their form suffers, then they're going a bit too heavy.

    What about SLDL, do you think RDL is superior to SLDL?
    I like deficit SLDLs For the superior hamstring stretch compared to RDLs, but they are much harder on the lower back. People all too often try to load these up with more than they handle and lose its benefits as it becomes just another ego lift. RDLs are simpler to learn and teach. I still prefer good mornings to either though.
    Last edited by BeginnerGainz; 06-01-2020 at 08:01 PM.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    I like deficit SLDLs For the superior hamstring stretch compared to RDLs, but they are much harder on the lower back. People all too often try to load these up with more than they handle and lose its benefits as it becomes just another ego lift. RDLs are simpler to learn and teach. I still prefer good mornings to either though.
    I don't do deficit deadlifts at all but I'm not sworn off them.

    Without getting complex (deficits, paused, bands, chains, grip, etc.), a powerlifter would probably rank the lifts:
    1. DL
    2. SLDL
    3. RDL

    A bodybuilder would rank:
    1. RDL
    2. SLDL
    3. DL
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post
    I don't do deficit deadlifts at all but I'm not sworn off them.

    Without getting complex (deficits, paused, bands, chains, grip, etc.), a powerlifter would probably rank the lifts:
    1. DL
    2. SLDL
    3. RDL

    A bodybuilder would rank:
    1. RDL
    2. SLDL
    3. DL
    That is my take on it as well
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post
    I don't do deficit deadlifts at all but I'm not sworn off them.

    Without getting complex (deficits, paused, bands, chains, grip, etc.), a powerlifter would probably rank the lifts:
    1. DL
    2. SLDL
    3. RDL

    A bodybuilder would rank:
    1. RDL
    2. SLDL
    3. DL
    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    That is my take on it as well
    Agree with both of you on that. But it's not an either or, you can work >1 of them into your routine depending on what you're looking for, but certainly don't need to.

    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    YMMV, but the deadlift isn’t irreplaceable, it’s exactly the opposite. ... Squats, a better hip hinge and a pulling exercise (be it rows, high pulls, etc) beat out a deadlift any day, and these are exercises you should already be doing anyway.
    That's 3 against 1. If we're talking about building muscle, any of them are replaceable based on your overall routine and goals, not just traditional DLs.
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    Originally Posted by George2100 View Post
    Never even heard of starting strength until a few months ago
    If you want a dose of brain cancer, go over to the starting strength forums. There is some hardcore Rippetoe worship going on. It might be worse than reddit.
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    If you want a dose of brain cancer, go over to the starting strength forums. There is some hardcore Rippetoe worship going on. It might be worse than reddit.
    You have to be able to chug down a gallon of milk in one go, before you're allowed in to those forums. It's for the elite few
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    Originally Posted by BeginnerGainz View Post
    If you want a dose of brain cancer, go over to the starting strength forums. There is some hardcore Rippetoe worship going on. It might be worse than reddit.
    a lot of their top posters/lifters bailed and started their own forums due to that - which was interesting cause quite a few had been sycophants prior.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    "ive stalled on SS"

    GET FATTER

    "im already 25%"

    I SAID GET FATTER
    Effin lol

    You have to be able to chug down a gallon of milk in one go, before you're allowed in to those forums. It's for the elite few
    Not gonna lie if someone managed to do that I’d be supremely impressed. Matter of fact, my dad still does that to this day, and he’s 66.

    You have to be able to chug down a gallon of milk in one go, before you're allowed in to those forums. It's for the elite few
    And the training world is better for it. There is more than one way to get strong.
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