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  1. #1
    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    cut bulk or eat at maintenance?

    what would you recommend for me based of my profile pic? also what would you reccommend routine wise as I've recently made the switch from metallicadpas ppl routine to icf 2.0? and if you can just give some bf percentages that would help alot thanks
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    You appear well over 20%, and would benefit from cutting your bodyfat down.

    In terms of a routine, what are your current lift numbers and how long have you been lifting?

    Regardless of what routine you choose (within reason), most important thing is to make consistent progress. ICF 2.0 is fine if you can handle it and make said progress.
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    Cut. Lose about 0.7% of bw per week while progressively getting stronger.

    ICF 5x5 is generally too much volume for cutting. Have a look at Fierce 5 Novice routine. It's better suited for cutting.
    Recommended science based fitness & nutrition information:
    Alan Aragon https://alanaragon.com/
    Brad Schoenfeld http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/
    James Krieger https://weightology.net/
    Jorn Trommelen http://www.nutritiontactics.com/
    Eric Helms & Team3DMJ https://3dmusclejourney.com/
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    right now my lifts are
    bench 135×5
    squat 185×5
    deads 225×5
    ohp 95×5
    and I started lifting seriously around may
    I started a dirty bulk around that time while still overweight and cut for a while
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    right now my lifts are
    bench 135×5
    squat 185×5
    deads 225×5
    ohp 95×5
    and I started lifting seriously around may
    I started a dirty bulk around that time while still overweight and cut for a while
    Body weight?
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    oh sorry 182 lbs 18 yo 5'9
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    oh sorry 182 lbs 18 yo 5'9
    Yeah cut. Pick a good program and stick to it.
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    the thing is that increasing my lifts on a cut is really difficult for me and I've been trying for a while now and it hasn't been working
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    also I see the original icf program has a cutting version would that be better than the icf 2.0 program?
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    the thing is that increasing my lifts on a cut is really difficult for me and I've been trying for a while now and it hasn't been working
    How so? Is your energy low?

    If so, try consuming more of your calories prior to training, especially more of the carbs... it will likely help with gym performance.

    You don't need to have a massive deficit, you can cut without feeling starved.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    I dont believe its low energy because I always eat some type of snack before the gym. Would eating a
    500 cal surplus on lifting days and a 500 cal deficit on lifting days be effective?
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    also what would you reccommend for a deficit my maintenance is around 2200 would 1700 or 1900 better while getting my numbers up?
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    anyone?
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    anyone?
    you should track you weight daily and use 7 day averages to determine progress. that way you can determine how much of a deficit you need. idk how your maintence is 2200 you weigh more than me but im eating 3k+. if you want to get your numbers up id go with a smaller deficit of 200 cal a day but when you stall you may need to lower it more
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    also I see the original icf program has a cutting version would that be better than the icf 2.0 program?
    Yes. Or even better: Fierce 5 novice.

    If you can just maintain your strength that's fine too. Make sure to lose about a pound per week.
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    would a 200 cal deficit be enough to facilitate fat loss though? also I'm not gonna do it but what do you guys think about the reddit ppl routine for someone whose cutting and has low lifts?
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    would a 200 cal deficit be enough to facilitate fat loss though?
    A calorie deficit by definition creates fat loss.... so... yes...
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    ok let me correct myself would it be effective compared to a 500 cal deficit
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    Op, you and I are almost the same height...and many similarities. Currently I’m 165lbs and I am 5ft 8inches. Maintenance is 2300 approx.

    I was 200lbs or so when I started last year. Starting loosing weight by calorie deficit and cycling.

    Added lifting to the mix a few months into cutting but started lifting serously in August.

    I used to be on ICF 5x5 and was cutting. Things were ok till I got to 167lbs and about 20% bodyfat. Just could not progress and could not Loose anymore fat either. I was Eating 1800 to 1950 calories a day and was about 167lbs.

    In august/September, I went to maintenance for a bit and then tried cutting again In November at 1800 to 1950 calories and also switched to Fierce 5 because recovery was a problem on ICF 5x5. Plus several studies and people say 5x5 gains are very slightly better than 3x5. So why work so hard for just a tad bit more progress? This is a marathon - a slow game.

    On a cut, I made progress for a couple weeks but then lifts started stalling. I started feeling like crap.

    I was told to up my calories and cut at 250 deficit. I upped my calories to 2000-2100. And I continued to make progress and very slight fatloss. This upping calories coincided with my root canal in the last few days of November and I ate a little higher calories to help with recovery and pain.

    Since fatloss was so small and I was eating a bit higher anyways and not gaining or loosing much weight, I have switched my plan to bring my muscle and calories up further. I am currently reverse dieting. I am going to keep adding 70 to 100 calories every week till I’m gaining 0.5lbs every two weeks.

    I’m going to stay there till I get to 175lbs. Then I’m gonna cut again.

    It seems like my body does not like to go below 165lbs for some reason. I’ve gotten stuck there twice. I also start feeling and looking very small at about that point. So far On reverse Diet, I’ve upped my calories by 200 a day and weight is still staying the same.

    Not sure how long you have been cutting but it may be time for a break. Get stronger and more muscular and then try cutting again.

    I’m hoping I’ll be 175lbs in about 10 months. If I feel muscle gains are not there In the next few weeks, I may up my weight gain to 0.75lbs every 2 weeks. Let’s see how it all plays.

    Hope I have not confused you even more. I’ve tried cutting and it worked till I got to 165lbs. I’ve tried maintaining for seceral months and I got stronger but looked and weight the fuking same. I tried cutting again and lifts stalled.

    So now I’m trying to reverse diet and get to a slight surplus of 100-200 a day and see how it plays out. At least it won’t be miserable as cutting.

    I don’t mind the hunger, but when lifts stall, that just upsets me. lol
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    ok let me correct myself would it be effective compared to a 500 cal deficit
    How are you quantifying ‘more effective’

    Do you understand what a calorie deficit is?

    500 is is 300 more than 200... so you’d lose fat 1.5 times faster....

    I hope this makes sense....
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Op, you and I are almost the same height...and many similarities. Currently I’m 165lbs and I am 5ft 8inches. Maintenance is 2300 approx.

    I was 200lbs or so when I started last year. Starting loosing weight by calorie deficit and cycling.

    Added lifting to the mix a few months into cutting but started lifting serously in August.

    I used to be on ICF 5x5 and was cutting. Things were ok till I got to 167lbs and about 20% bodyfat. Just could not progress and could not Loose anymore fat either. I was Eating 1800 to 1950 calories a day and was about 167lbs.

    In august/September, I went to maintenance for a bit and then tried cutting again In November at 1800 to 1950 calories and also switched to Fierce 5 because recovery was a problem on ICF 5x5. Plus several studies and people say 5x5 gains are very slightly better than 3x5. So why work so hard for just a tad bit more progress? This is a marathon - a slow game.

    On a cut, I made progress for a couple weeks but then lifts started stalling. I started feeling like crap.

    I was told to up my calories and cut at 250 deficit. I upped my calories to 2000-2100. And I continued to make progress and very slight fatloss. This upping calories coincided with my root canal in the last few days of November and I ate a little higher calories to help with recovery and pain.

    Since fatloss was so small and I was eating a bit higher anyways and not gaining or loosing much weight, I have switched my plan to bring my muscle and calories up further. I am currently reverse dieting. I am going to keep adding 70 to 100 calories every week till I’m gaining 0.5lbs every two weeks.

    I’m going to stay there till I get to 175lbs. Then I’m gonna cut again.

    It seems like my body does not like to go below 165lbs for some reason. I’ve gotten stuck there twice. I also start feeling and looking very small at about that point. So far On reverse Diet, I’ve upped my calories by 200 a day and weight is still staying the same.

    Not sure how long you have been cutting but it may be time for a break. Get stronger and more muscular and then try cutting again.

    I’m hoping I’ll be 175lbs in about 10 months. If I feel muscle gains are not there In the next few weeks, I may up my weight gain to 0.75lbs every 2 weeks. Let’s see how it all plays.

    Hope I have not confused you even more. I’ve tried cutting and it worked till I got to 165lbs. I’ve tried maintaining for seceral months and I got stronger but looked and weight the fuking same. I tried cutting again and lifts stalled.

    So now I’m trying to reverse diet and get to a slight surplus of 100-200 a day and see how it plays out. At least it won’t be miserable as cutting.

    I don’t mind the hunger, but when lifts stall, that just upsets me. lol
    I really appreciate the post and your thoughts so you would say to have a slight surplus and stay on icf? also when you were cutting how were u running the program?
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    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    I feel like I'm really over complicating this **** honestly. the way I see it is I stay cutting and not be able to up my lifts that much or at all or go through a slight surplus and start getting some body fat back
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    I feel like I'm really over complicating this **** honestly. the way I see it is I stay cutting and not be able to up my lifts that much or at all or go through a slight surplus and start getting some body fat back
    I'd definitely cut some more if I were you.

    If you really don't want to cut you could try recomping instead. This basically means you stay around 165 pounds while improving your lifts.
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    I really appreciate the post and your thoughts so you would say to have a slight surplus and stay on icf? also when you were cutting how were u running the program?
    Hey, how old are you?


    Slight surplus is up to you. That’s the last thing I’m trying after all else did not work too well.

    Looking at your Avi, you seem to have a higher bodyfat than 20% and if I were you I’d try to keep cutting for now. Maybe eat maintenance once or twice a week and do 500 deficit rest of the days.

    I did recomp for a few months and even though I got stronger, I looked the same. So I don’t recommend that. Be cutting or bulking (look at weekly deficit in the above suggestion) - maintaining sucks imo

    When I was cutting, I was running the normal version of the program. I switched to cutting version when I stalled and still could not progress. Then I upped calories and started making progress again.
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    Originally Posted by TryingBB View Post
    Hey, how old are you?


    Slight surplus is up to you. That’s the last thing I’m trying after all else did not work too well.

    Looking at your Avi, you seem to have a higher bodyfat than 20% and if I were you I’d try to keep cutting for now. Maybe eat maintenance once or twice a week and do 500 deficit rest of the days.

    I did recomp for a few months and even though I got stronger, I looked the same. So I don’t recommend that. Be cutting or bulking (look at weekly deficit in the above suggestion) - maintaining sucks imo

    When I was cutting, I was running the normal version of the program. I switched to cutting version when I stalled and still could not progress. Then I upped calories and started making progress again.
    I'm 18 yo so what your recommending is to calorie cycle?
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    Calorie cycling is pointless. Just stick to the same daily deficit. If you can only maintain strength on a cut, it doesn't make sense to cut excessively slowly. Aim for a 500 calorie deficit and get it done.
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    I'm 18 yo so what your recommending is to calorie cycle?
    He's recommending 5 days deficit, 2 days at maintenance. Which is not a bad idea.

    But doing 7 days deficit is fine too. What matters is that you're in deficit over the total week.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 12-16-2019 at 09:27 AM.
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    I'm 18 yo so what your recommending is to calorie cycle?
    Suffolkpunch has spoken. I’d take his advice anyday over mine. Try to cut like he said.

    If that’s not working for 3 to 4 workouts in a row, you’re loosing strength for example, then eat maintenance for a couple days. That’s what has worked for me in the past to get energy replenished for workouts and push me into progression.

    I’ve realized what everyone has said - body building is about learning your body and figuring out what works and what does not...

    You’re still a teenager almost - eat and lift. That’s what most will tell ya. Best time of your life to get the body of your dreams. Just make sure your progressing on Your lifts or on your cut. One or the other or both.
    **^^ Work hard AND more importantly, work smart ^^**
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  29. #29
    Registered User dannyboy1st's Avatar
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    I appreciate all the feedback I think I'll just do a 300 cal deficit and if fat loss slows ill drop it to 500 and stick with icf cutting version
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  30. #30
    Registered User TryingBB's Avatar
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    TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000) TryingBB is a name known to all. (+5000)
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    Originally Posted by dannyboy1st View Post
    I appreciate all the feedback I think I'll just do a 300 cal deficit and if fat loss slows ill drop it to 500 and stick with icf cutting version
    If you’re able to

    cut and maintain
    OR
    cut and progress

    On 500 deficit, I would do that. Get it done with.

    My issue is that I hit a wall at 165lbs. My body does not let go of the weight and I feel miserable. Cutting was easy for me from 190 to 170. Below that it sucks balls. I was actually regressing on my lifts. That’s why I changed my plan. Else I would continue cutting.

    Try and see what works for you. You’re pretty young and should experience some massive gains if you keep lifting and progressing like the program calls for.

    Good luck!!
    **^^ Work hard AND more importantly, work smart ^^**
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