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  1. #1
    Texas Brah niospecv's Avatar
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    Andrew Yang and Universal Basic Income (UBI)

    So this guy is pushing for UBI and I see so many issues with it.

    https://www.yang2020.com/policies/the-freedom-dividend/

    What do you guys think about this and would the country ever open up to this idea? In my mind there is no such thing as free money so we have to pay for this somehow.

    What say you Misc?
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    B*nn*d 401Delta's Avatar
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    I am in favor of someone giving me free money. I am opposed to other people getting free money.
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    Look, one of two things can happen. Either it will be a great solution to some of the problems people face due to automation OR it will bankrupt the nation and cause a total economic collapse. Both are a win for an incel like me. So, I'm definitely gonna support Yang. Plus he's a cool guy.
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    IMO better idea would be to tie it to income. If you fall between X and Y earned income you receive a tax credit of Z.

    If just giving people money would take them out of poverty then the welfare system wouldn't be in the situation it is. Giving people free money without having to work for it does nothing for the economy other than creating a larger income gap. People who earn their money spend it more wisely than people who get it for free and that's already been proven. At the same time it keeps people who obviously don't need it from getting it.
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    Registered User scheal's Avatar
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    Just tax people less

    Let me keep what I earn
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    Greg Mankiw, pretty much the most recognised macroeconomist of the modern era, is a fan of the idea and gets into it here:



    The productivity gains and wealth creation of the last half century have almost exclusively gone to a tiny group of people, partly through bad policy and partly through technological change. Republicans are just going to maintain that status quo and oversee it getting worse and worse.

    The Sanders/Warren crowd want to fix it by handing those resources over to the federal government and having them decide how it is used. Yang is suggesting putting those resources directly back in the hands of Americans and giving them the ability to decide how to improve their own lives.
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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    I'm not going to sit here and pretend that getting $12,000 in pre tax money a year wouldn't be nice, but in reality it would eventually have to come with tax increases.

    Yang thinks that he would be able to reduce costs to several already existing social services. What he is either ignoring or failing to understand is that once something has been subsidized for any significant amount of time by the government its almost completely impossible to pull that subsidy from them.

    Some of the programs he thinks cost savings would happen in would require the combined efforts of 10's of millions of Americans marching in the street and no one wants to do that when its to take away money from homeless programs (Even if its not needed anymore).

    I think we need to see a much larger expansion in automation and AI before we can realistically start considering UBI. The entire world needs to live in a true post scarcity society for it work.
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    It's failed everywhere it's been tried.

    also

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  9. #9
    Registered User Mumra's Avatar
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    the only reason money has value is because you have to earn it. all giving everyone money does is devalue it. that's basic economics. anyone in favor of this is either ignorant or blindly loyal to their party/cause.
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  10. #10
    Banned wincel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mumra View Post
    the only reason money has value is because you have to earn it. all giving everyone money does is devalue it. that's basic economics. anyone in favor of this is either ignorant or blindly loyal to their party/cause.
    That's not why money has value, and u fail economics. The thing that devalues money is the supply of money. If the studies Yang is using are accurate, then there won't be any additional debt from the plan. So, it shouldn't cause any kind of issue in terms of prices. It is a wealth transfer scheme, basically.
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    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    That's not why money has value, and u fail economics. The thing that devalues money is the supply of money.
    This lmao.

    I guess this is the right's fabled understanding of economics.
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Greg Mankiw, pretty much the most recognised macroeconomist of the modern era, is a fan of the idea and gets into it here:



    The productivity gains and wealth creation of the last half century have almost exclusively gone to a tiny group of people, partly through bad policy and partly through technological change. Republicans are just going to maintain that status quo and oversee it getting worse and worse.

    The Sanders/Warren crowd want to fix it by handing those resources over to the federal government and having them decide how it is used. Yang is suggesting putting those resources directly back in the hands of Americans and giving them the ability to decide how to improve their own lives.
    Why are "Economists" never billionaries?
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by kcadrenalin View Post
    It's failed everywhere it's been tried.

    also

    'Beware of Greeks bearing gifts'
    Ohh? What places and how has it failed.
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    Originally Posted by ymer View Post
    Why are "Economists" never billionaries?
    Have u heard of warren buffet?
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    Originally Posted by RudeKong View Post
    IMO better idea would be to tie it to income. If you fall between X and Y earned income you receive a tax credit of Z.

    If just giving people money would take them out of poverty then the welfare system wouldn't be in the situation it is. Giving people free money without having to work for it does nothing for the economy other than creating a larger income gap. People who earn their money spend it more wisely than people who get it for free and that's already been proven. At the same time it keeps people who obviously don't need it from getting it.
    So are you saying, if I quit my job I will get more free money.
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  16. #16
    Registered User miscinbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ImBunky View Post
    So are you saying, if I quit my job I will get more free money.
    It would seem so. The beauty of UBI is nobody ever has to question taking part time work and maybe losing s benefit or your hypo there. It comes same to you as everyone else but it’s not really enough to live on. Get a job and better yourself with a nice little influx of safety and resources.
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  17. #17
    The Gh0st Nelly87's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    The Sanders/Warren crowd want to fix it by handing those resources over to the federal government and having them decide how it is used. Yang is suggesting putting those resources directly back in the hands of Americans and giving them the ability to decide how to improve their own lives.
    **You mean** Yang want to put those resources INDIRECTLY back in the hands of Americans by proxy through the federal government by mandated taxe(s) punishable by prison/gun-point? Lettuce be cereal, for those paying more in taxes than they receive, it will be even more money loss.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with taxes, HIGHLY depends on what the tax is for and how efficient the process is done. It won't be a 1:1 relation from income to the recipients, there'll be a ton of overhead to transfer those funds.
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    Registered User ImBunky's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    It would seem so. The beauty of UBI is nobody ever has to question taking part time work and maybe losing s benefit or your hypo there. It comes same to you as everyone else but it’s not really enough to live on. Get a job and better yourself with a nice little influx of safety and resources.
    Maybe not enough to live on, but for those that have saved well for retirement enough to retire early.
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    Originally Posted by ImBunky View Post
    Maybe not enough to live on, but for those that have saved well for retirement enough to retire early.
    Good, get out of the workforce if you have the means and make some room for the new generation.
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    Originally Posted by ImBunky View Post
    Maybe not enough to live on, but for those that have saved well for retirement enough to retire early.
    That's also kind of the point. It's time boomers fuked off of the work force and let the new generation move up. No offense.
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    Yang thinks there is money floating in thin air that can be redirected for the prosperity of evetyone. He’s a technocrat and he has some really odd ball ideas, like paying congresspeople and the president more of a salary so they’re less likely to take bribes and kickbacks.

    He wants social media companies to pay YOU every time you upload an image because according to him you should own your data.

    He has some ideas and I like his unique perspective but he does nothing to address corporate corruption meaning more of the same. No thanks. UBI sounds great but we aren’t even seeing the devastating effects of automation yet.
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  22. #22
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    Just give everyone a $12,000 tax break.

    Now you don't need to spend money collecting money just to turn around and hand it back out through gov't bureaucracy.
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  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Just give everyone a $12,000 tax break.

    Now you don't need to spend money collecting money just to turn around and hand it back out through gov't bureaucracy.
    The majority of people who would benefit most strongly from UBI pay nowhere near 12k a year in taxes. The only way this might be feasible is if you also had a negative income tax component, where those who paid less than 12k a year in taxes recieved that difference back as a subsidy.

    But you're then losing trillion(s) in tax revenue while also having to still subsidize hundreds of millions of people, as well as still pay for many federal programs. That isn't going to add up.
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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    UBI=Welfare. It’s just wrapped up in a different package
    I get a tax deduction just by hanging out here

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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    That's not why money has value, and u fail economics. The thing that devalues money is the supply of money. If the studies Yang is using are accurate, then there won't be any additional debt from the plan. So, it shouldn't cause any kind of issue in terms of prices. It is a wealth transfer scheme, basically.
    no chit you dumb ass. you just explained why I'm right.

    Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Just give everyone a $12,000 tax break.

    Now you don't need to spend money collecting money just to turn around and hand it back out through gov't bureaucracy.
    because that's not what they're after.
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    Originally Posted by oldandintheway View Post
    UBI=Welfare. It’s just wrapped up in a different package
    Well Yang’s version is literally supposed to replace welfare with UBI ... so yea ... kind of. But it doesn’t have any of the fcked up incentives we’ve seen with welfare and is a billion times easier to administer. You also just know you get it and can make plans or takes risks with education, jobs, starting a business, etc.
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    There's a reason waitresses make $3/hour. Don't think that won't happen to everyone a few years after UBI hypothetically would be implemented. Also imagine how fast your rent will go up simply because now it can.
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    Originally Posted by jamalfudge View Post
    There's a reason waitresses make $3/hour. Don't think that won't happen to everyone a few years after UBI hypothetically would be implemented. Also imagine how fast your rent will go up simply because now it can.
    this. the floor will always be the floor. raising it won't change anything.
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    Originally Posted by jamalfudge View Post
    There's a reason waitresses make $3/hour. Don't think that won't happen to everyone a few years after UBI hypothetically would be implemented. Also imagine how fast your rent will go up simply because now it can.
    That's not how prices work. They aren't balanced to be a proportion of what you make. They are balanced in reference to how they are exchanged in relation to other goods. Billionaires don't have to pay more for the same product as you. Your logic is fail. Yang isn't just going to print 1k/mo for everyone. It is being taxed. It isn't creating any money.
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    I think the crazy lady in the horseface video had the right idea, albeit missing some points.

    If low income people have a child, where they need federal assistance. One child is ok, TWO children is ok.

    3rd, 4rd 5rd? The mother and all children 'late term aborted' because chance are they are destined to a life of crime due to their whore mothers horrible upbringing.
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