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  1. #1
    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    First Time Bulker

    I’m going to start my first bulk to build some muscle but not too much fat and am looking for some advice. Currently I’m 6’3” 195lb at around 15 bf%.

    I go to the gym 3 times a week and do a push/pull/leg program; push M, pull W, and leg Thurs. mostly 3 or 4 sets of 8 reps. On M and Wed I do about 30 or 40 mins of running cardio after I workout. I’m thinking of a lean bulk with 300 cals surplus to start, giving me a rest day calorie total of 2700 with 200g protein, 60g fat, and 340g of carbs. Any extra calories I eat to cover extra calories I burn Lifting or doing cardio would just be whatever I wanted to eat without regard for a macro split.

    Does this sound like a good plan?

    sometimes I miss a day due to work and just do 2 days a week. Sometimes my age slows me down and I miss a whole week. When I miss a workout, should I not bulk on those days or how should I adjust?

    Also, I lift and cardio at lunch. Should I heavy load carbs in the morning or will carbs I eat the night before work for energy?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by LazerTag; 12-07-2019 at 08:38 AM.
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  2. #2
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Training each muscle group once a week isn’t optimal.

    You’d be better off with an A-B-A or full body style split if you can get in 3 days a week.

    It won’t mean zero progress, but I’d suggest the A-B-A method.

    Also, zero reason to eat less on rest days unless your all around activity changes drastically... consistent energy intake is a better approach IMO
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback! Less than optimal being 70-80% of the benefit?

    How does the nutrition plan look?
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LazerTag View Post
    Thanks for the feedback! Less than optimal being 70-80% of the benefit?

    How does the nutrition plan look?
    I have no idea on the % difference

    I commented on the 'rest day' idea...

    if you want nutrition advice just refer to the stickies... only you know your calorie needs.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I have no idea on the % difference

    I commented on the 'rest day' idea...

    if you want nutrition advice just refer to the stickies... only you know your calorie needs.
    Thanks! I’ve reviewed all the stickies. This post is to check my understanding.

    Hopefully I can get other comments as well.
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    tbh I think your body fat is too high to start a bulk....just my 2 cents. id drop to 8-12 minimum then start a bulk from there
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    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pinggolfer96 View Post
    tbh I think your body fat is too high to start a bulk....just my 2 cents. id drop to 8-12 minimum then start a bulk from there
    I would look like a stick if I went down to 10% at my current level of muscle. I’ve already dropped 50lbs of fat. It time for some gains!
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    pay the iron price SuffolkPunch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LazerTag View Post
    Thanks for the feedback! Less than optimal being 70-80% of the benefit?

    How does the nutrition plan look?
    We don't know for sure - but why would you deliberately choose something that's going to shortchange your results? It would be a no cost option doing something that trains each bodypart twice.

    It's hard enough to get worthwhile results without knowingly putting extra obstacles in the way.

    You have more protein than you really need - and are trying to cut fat too low.
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    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    We don't know for sure - but why would you deliberately choose something that's going to shortchange your results? It would be a no cost option doing something that trains each bodypart twice.

    It's hard enough to get worthwhile results without knowingly putting extra obstacles in the way.

    You have more protein than you really need - and are trying to cut fat too low.
    I have a personal trainer and this is the workout I was given. Is it a proven fact that the plan they gave me will produce less optimal results than what is suggested above? If not, I was trying to agree to disagree and focus more on my nutrition plan instead of a debate of 3day vs full body. Especially if the difference is only 10-20%.

    How confident are you about the protein? 1g per 1lb of body weight is the average of all the recommendations I’ve seen. What would you suggest on the protein and fat?

    Other than my choice to do 3 day split vs A B A, which I may research more, is there any other advice someone is willing to share? Does anyone else think I should not bulk? Am I bulking too much with a 300 cal surplus or should I start slower? Thanks!
    Last edited by LazerTag; 12-08-2019 at 08:04 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by LazerTag View Post
    I have a personal trainer and this is the workout I was given. Is it a proven fact that the plan they gave me will produce less optimal results than what is suggested above? If not, I was trying to agree to disagree and focus more on my nutrition plan instead of a debate of 3day vs full body. Especially if the difference is only 10-20%.

    How confident are you about the protein? 1g per 1lb of body weight is the average of all the recommendations I’ve seen. What would you suggest on the protein and fat?

    Other than my choice to do 3 day split vs A B A, which I may research more, is there any other advice someone is willing to share? Does anyone else think I should not bulk? Am I bulking too much with a 300 cal surplus or should I start slower? Thanks!
    You won't get many things that can be proved beyond all doubt in this game. However, the weight of the research suggests that you are leaving gains on the table if you leave it 7 days between training a muscle.

    Again, for protein, it's about evidence available. There is little such evidence that more than 1.6g of protein per kg of lean body mass will add any additional benefit. The role of essential fats is well understood and it's possible you will not be getting enough EFAs from 60g total fat.

    There is no upper limit on any macro - except that you are constrained by total calories.
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  11. #11
    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    You won't get many things that can be proved beyond all doubt in this game. However, the weight of the research suggests that you are leaving gains on the table if you leave it 7 days between training a muscle.

    Again, for protein, it's about evidence available. There is little such evidence that more than 1.6g of protein per kg of lean body mass will add any additional benefit. The role of essential fats is well understood and it's possible you will not be getting enough EFAs from 60g total fat.

    There is no upper limit on any macro - except that you are constrained by total calories.
    Thanks! Where would you put the fat? Around 80? At 60g I am at a 50/30/20 split with fat being 20. If I pull more fat from protein I’ll be around a 50/25/25...

    Also, my long term goal is to remain at 14%bf. This is where I am now, but I want more muscle. Should I dial back the surplus calories to 150 and do more of a recomp/bulk instead of a normal bulk?
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  12. #12
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LazerTag View Post
    Thanks! Where would you put the fat? Around 80? At 60g I am at a 50/30/20 split with fat being 20. If I pull more fat from protein I’ll be around a 50/25/25...

    Also, my long term goal is to remain at 14%bf. This is where I am now, but I want more muscle. Should I dial back the surplus calories to 150 and do more of a recomp/bulk instead of a normal bulk?
    Stop using ratios... they're useless.

    You said you read the stickies, but if you did, you wouldn't be using ratios...
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  13. #13
    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Stop using ratios... they're useless.

    You said you read the stickies, but if you did, you wouldn't be using ratios...
    That’s what my trainer gave me...
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LazerTag View Post
    That’s what my trainer gave me...
    In an earlier post you claimed you read the stickies and your diet was to check your understanding of them... so, how does that work? The stickies plainly state to NOT use ratios.

    Set protein to 1.6g/KG +
    Set fat .4g/lb +

    Fill in remaining calories with whatever helps you perform and feel your best.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    Ok, thanks! Thanks what I was using before I started working with my trainer. The good thing about this is I can follow what my trainer said while still meeting these guideline. Looks like I miss calculated my fat number in that .4g x 20p is 80, not 40. I will adjust accordingly.

    I’m still interested in what people think about a recomp/bulk vs a straight bulk given my goal... I’ve gotten good advice on the rest.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LazerTag View Post
    Ok, thanks! Thanks what I was using before I started working with my trainer. The good thing about this is I can follow what my trainer said while still meeting these guideline. Looks like I miss calculated my fat number in that .4g x 20p is 80, not 40. I will adjust accordingly.

    I’m still interested in what people think about a recomp/bulk vs a straight bulk given my goal... I’ve gotten good advice on the rest.
    Your decision to bulk vs recomp is personal preference... no one can make up your mind for you or tell you how you should look.

    If you're comfortable eating in a surplus, do it.

    If not, don't do it....

    Other people's opinions on when to start shouldn't matter. You do you...
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    FWIW, To be a certified personal trainer, you must pass a test. As part of the materials they provide to study for that test come the 50/30/20 split. I may have misunderstood the process, but that is what I was told.

    I’m just cross checking that info against the info here as it often contradicts. They key to this is to decide how much to trust one vs the other. Hopefully I can find solution that fit both sources to maximize my chances of hitting the correct plan.

    Most of the people on this forum follow the sticky advice, so hearing the holes in my plan help me make sure I factored in the sticky information correctly.

    Thanks!
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    Registered User LazerTag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Your decision to bulk vs recomp is personal preference... no one can make up your mind for you or tell you how you should look.

    If you're comfortable eating in a surplus, do it.

    If not, don't do it....

    Other people's opinions on when to start shouldn't matter. You do you...
    Of course it is all my choice. I’m just trying to find out which would help me best hit my goal of gaining more muscle while keeping being at 14% long term.

    Please don’t feel obligated to reply as this question is more to the general audience.
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    Originally Posted by LazerTag View Post
    FWIW, To be a certified personal trainer, you must pass a test.

    If that is your criteria to accept their advice... then... be my guest.

    The science does not agree with it. But again, it's your life.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    If that is your criteria to accept their advice... then... be my guest.

    The science does not agree with it. But again, it's your life.
    Ok.
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    Thanks for all the advice so far!

    I’m still am curious to hear thoughts on whether a 150cal surplus bulk/recomp would be better than a 300cal surplus bulk if my long term goal is to be at 14%bf with more muscle. I’d like to find the perfect cal surplus so that I’m keeping my body fat % constant while gaining more muscle faster. I know this is an impossible questions, but curious to hear your thoughts based on your experience.

    Thanks!
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    Originally Posted by LazerTag View Post
    Thanks for all the advice so far!

    I’m still am curious to hear thoughts on whether a 150cal surplus bulk/recomp would be better than a 300cal surplus bulk if my long term goal is to be at 14%bf with more muscle. I’d like to find the perfect cal surplus so that I’m keeping my body fat % constant while gaining more muscle faster. I know this is an impossible questions, but curious to hear your thoughts based on your experience.

    Thanks!
    If you chase perfection, you'll just get nowhere.

    A 150 calories surplus is like adding an extra large banana... personally, I always aim for 300... if a surplus is the goal.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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