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  1. #1
    Registered User Arizona45's Avatar
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    Card Sharks Hate Arnold Schwarzenegger

    I was watching an old episode of the game show Card Sharks from 1986 today. One of the questions asked was of 100 men randomly surveyed, how many said they would like to have a body like that of Arnold Schwarzenegger. Only 34 percent of men said they would like that physique.

    I think that the true "bodybuilding" physique is still socially marginal in 2019. Men can oftentimes be much more attractive to the opposite sex if they are simply athletically toned.

    Bodybuilding is, perhaps, a pathological attempt to compensate for an inferiority complex, overt narcissism, obsessive compulsive, or the result of an asocial personality. In many instances, the use of performance enhancing drugs causes both physical and psychological harm to full-fledged bodybuilders. It is often a selfish, vain activity that is of little social value.

    In your opinion, is there any merit to such statements? Are other athletes not only healthy but also more skilled? Do they not offer more to society than bodybuilders?

    To be honest, the areas of the United States with men sporting the most muscle per kilogram of weight compared with the general population are probably prisons.

    George Foreman won the Heavyweight Championship of boxing at age 45. To look at him, it is clear he was overweight. However, he had the stamina, drive, and skill necessary to compete with the best in the sport. His focus was upon more than his appearance and an obsession with developing muscle. He was an inspiration to old and young alike and proved to never judge a book by its cover.
    Last edited by Arizona45; 09-28-2019 at 04:54 AM.
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    Weak and foolish OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Arizona45 View Post
    ... is, perhaps, a pathological attempt to compensate for an inferiority complex, overt narcissism, obsessive compulsive, or the result of an asocial personality... ... It is often a selfish, vain activity that is of little social value...
    Now that's odd, because an almost identical criticism could be made for making unnecessary over-analysing pseudo psychology


    Edit: better add that I have an odd sense of humour, so it's not intended to be offensive, irreverent maybe, but always intended as good natured

    Edit2: I train because I enjoy the process.
    Just as well really because if I was interested only in fast aesthetic results I'd have given up in disappointment a long while ago
    Last edited by OldFartTom; 09-28-2019 at 12:54 PM.
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  3. #3
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Now that's odd, because an almost identical criticism could be made for making unnecessary over-analysing pseudo psychology


    Edit: better add that I have an odd sense of humour, so it's not intended to be offensive, irreverent maybe, but always intended as good natured

    Edit2: I train because I enjoy the process.
    Just as well really because if I was interested only in fast aesthetic results I'd have given up in disappointment a long while ago

    ^^^^ --Yes!

    OP, most people who train have no ambition to compete. For those who do compete, in ANY sport, the sacrifices made go far beyond the health benefits of fitness. All professional athletes push their bodies to unhealthy extremes. Even George Foreman did so. Most of them stop doing this when they are no longer competing.

    Not sure why you're singling out bodybuilders here, other than that the sport involves physical appearance rather than physical feats. But that's a rather arbitrary and artificial distinction.



    --edited to add: Every sport also has enthusiasts who imagine themselves as competition-worthy, or amateurs who want to be, even if they'll never get there. They may abuse their bodies to similar levels, while never approaching the performance required to succeed at the highest level. Some of these may be worthy of psuedo psychological attention. But it's probably not accurate to generalize.
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    Lifetime Member crupiea's Avatar
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    So you are saying that there are men who, if they had a chance to wake up tomorrow with a body like Arnold, they would say no?

    I dont know if the raised eyebrow of skepticism can be seen through my computer but it is raised.
    "To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other."-- Carlos Castaneda
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    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by crupiea View Post
    So you are saying that there are men who, if they had a chance to wake up tomorrow with a body like Arnold, they would say no?

    I dont know if the raised eyebrow of skepticism can be seen through my computer but it is raised.
    I wouldn't, because even if I could miraculously achieve it with out effort, it would still be a lot of hard work and sacrifice to maintain. I'm too lazy for that. I want to get as good as I can with the amount of effort that I can put into it, without sacrificing my other interests. To maintain a body like Arnold, I'd have to be a monomaniac, not a megalomaniac. I would have to work like it's the most important thing in the world, and nothing else matters.

    I don't want to do that.

    Still, I have a lot of respect for his achievement, and for those who pursue a dedication to that level.
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  6. #6
    Registered User Arizona45's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    ^^^^ --Yes!

    OP, most people who train have no ambition to compete. For those who do compete, in ANY sport, the sacrifices made go far beyond the health benefits of fitness. All professional athletes push their bodies to unhealthy extremes. Even George Foreman did so. Most of them stop doing this when they are no longer competing.

    Not sure why you're singling out bodybuilders here, other than that the sport involves physical appearance rather than physical feats. But that's a rather arbitrary and artificial distinction.



    --edited to add: Every sport also has enthusiasts who imagine themselves as competition-worthy, or amateurs who want to be, even if they'll never get there. They may abuse their bodies to similar levels, while never approaching the performance required to succeed at the highest level. Some of these may be worthy of psuedo psychological attention. But it's probably not accurate to generalize.
    That is an excellent response. I suppose many professional and amateur athletes push their body to extremes that may be a detriment to their health or counterproductive in other ways. There are myriad reasons for such behavior but, for most, there must be an expectation of tangible reward. The reward can be intrinsic or extrinsic. As adults, I think many men and women lose interest in exercise because family and work take precedence. There is no more praise from the stands at high school games. The innocent enjoyment from scoring a touchdown in a flag football game is quashed by adult responsibilities. I think many men and women in their 20s exercise to look good and attract a partner. That is the tangible reward. Once married, however, many people become complacent or jaded and let their sedentary bodies fall into disrepair. It is not until years pass that many of these people start exercising again, if ever.

    The people who have the initiative and motivation to continue exercising not only for fitness but to push themselves to excel athletically and try to surpass their contemporaries in endurance, strength, and skill are statistical aberrations who deserve psychological analysis. Their behaviors may be healthy or unhealthy, depending upon the underlying etiologies.

    I singled out bodybuilding because, among recreational or amateur athletes, it is the sport that involves the most narcissism and illegal drug use, Bodybuilding also requires a regimented diet and is associated with eating disorders and unrealistic notions of what is a healthy body. Many men, especially younger men, also body build to "get chicks." It is a sport associated with machismo and a laissez-faire attitude towards sex and women, It is a sport that objectifies people. diminishing their intrinsic worth and relegating those with certain body types to the social periphery.
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  7. #7
    Registered User Arizona45's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    I wouldn't, because even if I could miraculously achieve it with out effort, it would still be a lot of hard work and sacrifice to maintain. I'm too lazy for that. I want to get as good as I can with the amount of effort that I can put into it, without sacrificing my other interests. To maintain a body like Arnold, I'd have to be a monomaniac, not a megalomaniac. I would have to work like it's the most important thing in the world, and nothing else matters.

    I don't want to do that.

    Still, I have a lot of respect for his achievement, and for those who pursue a dedication to that level.
    I have a graduate degree in English and a degree in education. You seem to be something of a logophile with a penchant for puns and other rhetorical devices. Most professional bodybuilders are monomaniacs. Many people who excel in a particular vocation or avocation are monomaniacs. However, there are some gifted people who can embrace diversity and excel in myriad endeavors.
    Last edited by Arizona45; 09-28-2019 at 11:34 PM.
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    Registered User Arizona45's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    I wouldn't, because even if I could miraculously achieve it with out effort, it would still be a lot of hard work and sacrifice to maintain. I'm too lazy for that. I want to get as good as I can with the amount of effort that I can put into it, without sacrificing my other interests. To maintain a body like Arnold, I'd have to be a monomaniac, not a megalomaniac. I would have to work like it's the most important thing in the world, and nothing else matters.

    I don't want to do that.

    Still, I have a lot of respect for his achievement, and for those who pursue a dedication to that level.
    The work required to obtain a bodybuilder's physique is, to me, incommensurate with the reward. I am content just exercising for health and a reasonable aesthetic. I think there are more important things in life than building a shell that is destined to decay. It is superficial. What good does it do for other people or the world?
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    Weak and foolish OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Arizona45 View Post
    The work required to obtain a bodybuilder's physique is, to me, incommensurate with the reward. I am content just exercising for health and a reasonable aesthetic. I think there are more important things in life than building a shell that is destined to decay. It is superficial. What good does it do for other people or the world?
    Despite warnings (from Ozymandius to The Foolish Farmer) most of what we all do all day is destined to decay, so is bodybuilding any more or less pointless than many other hobbies. I go jogging round a lake 3 times a week (nearby so there/back is part of the run, and it has pullup bars) and I see people fishing. If they catch one they must put it back!
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by Arizona45 View Post
    The work required to obtain a bodybuilder's physique is, to me, incommensurate with the reward. I am content just exercising for health and a reasonable aesthetic. I think there are more important things in life than building a shell that is destined to decay. It is superficial. What good does it do for other people or the world?
    What good does any hobby or sport do for other people or the world? You could say that there are more important things in life for virtually any sport or hobby...which, by your definition, makes them superficial. Singling out bodybuilding here seems pretty arbitrary.

    As far as the work/reward ratio goes, that obviously differs for everybody. I don't think the work required to be a professional hackeysack player is worth the reward....which is why I don't play hackeysack. It doesn't mean there aren't people out there who are more keen on those rewards than I am.
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    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Arizona45 View Post
    The work required to obtain a bodybuilder's physique is, to me, incommensurate with the reward. I am content just exercising for health and a reasonable aesthetic. I think there are more important things in life than building a shell that is destined to decay. It is superficial. What good does it do for other people or the world?
    Again, that is a choice we make. And the mono-mania aspect is pretty much true for the great majority of professional athletes in any sport, so it's a bit unfair to single out bodybuilding.

    Yes, it's impermanent. Everything is. Everything decays. Even the pyramids. What's important is to create and find meaning in the accomplishments you achieve in the life you have. If for some people, that includes a body form that they find to be maximally aesthetic, then so be it. I'm not one to criticize, unless by doing that they actually bring harm to others.

    For these people, while I have no desire to emulate them at the levels they have reached, I do find inspiration in their work, and they illuminate paths I can take in order to make myself and my life better. So, I don't want to be them, but I can still thank them for who they are. They actually HAVE done good for me.
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    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Despite warnings (from Ozymandius to The Foolish Farmer) most of what we all do all day is destined to decay, so is bodybuilding any more or less pointless than many other hobbies. I go jogging round a lake 3 times a week (nearby so there/back is part of the run, and it has pullup bars) and I see people fishing. If they catch one they must put it back!
    ^^^

    What he said.
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    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    What good does any hobby or sport do for other people or the world? You could say that there are more important things in life for virtually any sport or hobby...which, by your definition, makes them superficial. Singling out bodybuilding here seems pretty arbitrary.

    As far as the work/reward ratio goes, that obviously differs for everybody. I don't think the work required to be a professional hackeysack player is worth the reward....which is why I don't play hackeysack. It doesn't mean there aren't people out there who are more keen on those rewards than I am.
    For some reason, I would never have suspected this post coming from a nihilist.
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    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Arizona45 View Post
    I have a graduate degree in English and a degree in education. You seem to be something of a logophile with a penchant for puns and other rhetorical devices. Most professional bodybuilders are monomaniacs. Many people who excel in a particular vocation or avocation are monomaniacs. However, there are some gifted people who can embrace diversity and excel in myriad endeavors.
    Sometimes I'm a logophile. If I were smarter, I'd probably spend more time being a log-off-phile.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    For some reason, I would never have suspected this post coming from a nihilist.
    Touche
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    I'm reminded of when someone told Arnold "I would never want to look like you" to which he replied, "Don't worry you never will."

    When I began I figured I would train like I wanted to be pro card BB'er and I would fall short somewhere along the way. I still prefer that over training to "get toned."
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    Well, I did begin training hard because of Arnold, but that was a long time ago. I personally now think his "look" overall is overrated (some here will say I'm just looking for an excuse to be a fat ass), but I don't care for those fake looking titties of his or his girlie looking "V" shape, tiny waist, and lean thin legs (although his legs were better in his early 20's).

    I prefer to have Popeye forearms, the neck of a pit-bull, tree trunk thighs and a wide rock solid back with overly grown rear delts and lats, a sunk-in chest is fine with me as long as it's rock solid.

    I also am attracted to the opposite sex to be a tad chunky with "powerhouse" legs and glutes.
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    Jim Perry was the man. Higher than a 4. EHHHHHHHH a 3.
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    Well, I did begin training hard because of Arnold, but that was a long time ago. I personally now think his "look" overall is overrated (some here will say I'm just looking for an excuse to be a fat ass), but I don't care for those fake looking titties of his or his girlie looking "V" shape, tiny waist, and lean thin legs (although his legs were better in his early 20's).

    I prefer to have Popeye forearms, the neck of a pit-bull, tree trunk thighs and a wide rock solid back with overly grown rear delts and lats, a sunk-in chest is fine with me as long as it's rock solid.

    I also am attracted to the opposite sex to be a tad chunky with "powerhouse" legs and glutes.
    Well, I hope you're eating your spinach!
    I'm out, standing in my field.

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    Registered User Arizona45's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AlBHappy View Post
    Jim Perry was the man. Higher than a 4. EHHHHHHHH a 3.
    I don't think the cards were shuffled randomly. I think they were rigged to prolong the game and confuse players.
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    Registered User Arizona45's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    Well, I did begin training hard because of Arnold, but that was a long time ago. I personally now think his "look" overall is overrated (some here will say I'm just looking for an excuse to be a fat ass), but I don't care for those fake looking titties of his or his girlie looking "V" shape, tiny waist, and lean thin legs (although his legs were better in his early 20's).

    I prefer to have Popeye forearms, the neck of a pit-bull, tree trunk thighs and a wide rock solid back with overly grown rear delts and lats, a sunk-in chest is fine with me as long as it's rock solid.

    I also am attracted to the opposite sex to be a tad chunky with "powerhouse" legs and glutes.
    I am not built to be big. I think it would be unhealthy for me to put on weight at age 45. I would rather be 5'11" lean and cut at 160 pounds than 220 pounds. Not only are the health risks of being overweight - even if the excess weight is muscle - higher but it is also a much more difficult look to obtain for somebody with my metabolism and build. I think falling into the fitness category is, for me, an easy goal to achieve.
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    Registered User Arizona45's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    Well, I did begin training hard because of Arnold, but that was a long time ago. I personally now think his "look" overall is overrated (some here will say I'm just looking for an excuse to be a fat ass), but I don't care for those fake looking titties of his or his girlie looking "V" shape, tiny waist, and lean thin legs (although his legs were better in his early 20's).

    I prefer to have Popeye forearms, the neck of a pit-bull, tree trunk thighs and a wide rock solid back with overly grown rear delts and lats, a sunk-in chest is fine with me as long as it's rock solid.

    I also am attracted to the opposite sex to be a tad chunky with "powerhouse" legs and glutes.
    I am attracted to obese women or women with average builds who are top heavy. I am not attracted to fit women or women who show more interest in themselves than others.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Well, I hope you're eating your spinach!
    If she is 400 pounds chunky and he plans on marrying her and carrying her over the threshold, he will need more than leafy greens!

    I was just looking at your profile. Congrats for getting down to 14% body fat. I have dropped from 188 pounds to 180 pounds fairly quickly and went from 21.5% bodyfat to 19%. I've been at the gym four hours a day. I am excited to see what I can do over the next year.
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    Originally Posted by Arizona45 View Post
    If she is 400 pounds chunky and he plans on marrying her and carrying her over the threshold, he will need more than leafy greens!

    I was just looking at your profile. Congrats for getting down to 14% body fat. I have dropped from 188 pounds to 180 pounds fairly quickly and went from 21.5% bodyfat to 19%. I've been at the gym four hours a day. I am excited to see what I can do over the next year.
    Good for you! I think you have the right priorities, for you.

    Don’t take that 14% number too seriously. It’s a rough guess, it was made with a tape measure rather than calipers, and had I known then what I know now, I wouldn’t have posted it. I found out last month that some of my abdominal girth and mass is not really “me”, and it will be coming out sometime in November. I hope that none of what really IS “me” goes with it. Anyway, after a couple of months recovery I’ll be able to form a better picture of what’s lean and what’s fat in there.
    I'm out, standing in my field.

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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Good for you! I think you have the right priorities, for you.

    Don’t take that 14% number too seriously. It’s a rough guess, it was made with a tape measure rather than calipers, and had I known then what I know now, I wouldn’t have posted it. I found out last month that some of my abdominal girth and mass is not really “me”, and it will be coming out sometime in November. I hope that none of what really IS “me” goes with it. Anyway, after a couple of months recovery I’ll be able to form a better picture of what’s lean and what’s fat in there.
    I am not sure if the mass is malignant or benign but I hope it is the latter. You indicated you have cancer but did not say what kind. Depending upon cancer type and stage, cancer is not necessarily a death sentence, as you said in another post. My mother was diagnosed with Stage IV uterine cancer eight months ago. She has had surgery and is on her second round of chemo but I do not expect her to live another year. There are still far too many cancers that are death sentences. My wife is a nurse and sees it all the time.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Good for you! I think you have the right priorities, for you.

    Don’t take that 14% number too seriously. It’s a rough guess, it was made with a tape measure rather than calipers, and had I known then what I know now, I wouldn’t have posted it. I found out last month that some of my abdominal girth and mass is not really “me”, and it will be coming out sometime in November. I hope that none of what really IS “me” goes with it. Anyway, after a couple of months recovery I’ll be able to form a better picture of what’s lean and what’s fat in there.
    AS people age, sudden cardiac death is also more likely. One might have a 50% blockage and have no idea. A plaque can rupture without notice, leaving one at the mercy of bystanders and a defibrillator if one is available.
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    Originally Posted by Arizona45 View Post
    I am not sure if the mass is malignant or benign but I hope it is the latter. You indicated you have cancer but did not say what kind. Depending upon cancer type and stage, cancer is not necessarily a death sentence, as you said in another post. My mother was diagnosed with Stage IV uterine cancer eight months ago. She has had surgery and is on her second round of chemo but I do not expect her to live another year. There are still far too many cancers that are death sentences. My wife is a nurse and sees it all the time.
    This is a pretty rare form, apparently, that starts in the appendix and spews cancerous sludge into the abdomenal cavity. It’s slow growing and curable, but it’s major surgery and a rinse of chemo to get rid of it. Fortunately they caught it early during what was supposed to be a routine scan, and there are no markers in the blood, so it doesn’t look to have infiltrated anything, I hope. I’ll be down for a month or so, and then start working my way back up again.

    Like you said, it’s still too devastating for too many, part of the chance we take having DNA. As we get older, those chances get greater—but we still take them. Being fit and strong is still one of our best defenses.
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    Registered User LWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Arizona45 View Post
    AS people age, sudden cardiac death is also more likely. One might have a 50% blockage and have no idea. A plaque can rupture without notice, leaving one at the mercy of bystanders and a defibrillator if one is available.
    Well, chit then, no one is going to help my @ss, I like being 220 and being able to bully people around

    Mtpockets, do you know what needs to be done to pass MY bootcamp? Bend a bar (at least 9/16") across the throat into a "U", without tapping out (someone else has to bend it across the throat).

    I can do that, DWARF POWER!
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    I do think a lot of bodybuilders obviously are narcissistic.

    I mean why would they post year after year half naked pictures of themselves to other men to admire if they're not gay?
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    I mean why would they post year after year half naked pictures of themselves to other men to admire if they're not gay?
    Duh - the no homo tag makes it okay
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