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  1. #1
    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Cable machine 2:1 ratio

    Hello

    I am searching for some time this information and can't find it, no one is really talking about it since pulley is mostly there to make weight feel lighter and easier to pull.

    I am planing to make high/low pulley machine, like A with pulley block or like B where i would have to attach cable when using lower pulley. If i am correct, both systems are using 1:1 ratio, so doing biceps curl with free weight and on machine provides same level of resistance.
    I would like to make machine where free weight provides double resistance. I don't know if i put 1 of 2 upper pulleys 2x larger than the other (talking about picture B) will that change ratio?
    Hope someone has some ideas
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  2. #2
    Registered User RandyMcdonald's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post
    Hello

    I am searching for some time this information and can't find it, no one is really talking about it since pulley is mostly there to make weight feel lighter and easier to pull.

    I am planing to make high/low pulley machine, like A with pulley block or like B where i would have to attach cable when using lower pulley. If i am correct, both systems are using 1:1 ratio, so doing biceps curl with free weight and on machine provides same level of resistance.
    I would like to make machine where free weight provides double resistance. I don't know if i put 1 of 2 upper pulleys 2x larger than the other (talking about picture B) will that change ratio?
    Hope someone has some ideas
    If I understand what you are wanting, you could do something like this on the right side (see attachment). When wanting to do pulldown you would need to attach pulldown bar directly to "A". When wanting to do low row you would attach "A" to "B" and pull cable at "C".
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  3. #3
    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    If I understand what you are wanting, you could do something like this on the right side (see attachment). When wanting to do pulldown you would need to attach pulldown bar directly to "A". When wanting to do low row you would attach "A" to "B" and pull cable at "C".
    Yes, that was what i want. Thanks for idea.
    While i was thinking how to make it, i knew that in order to make 2x resistance pulley has to move together with weight (which i see now it was true), but also, if i am correct, weight will now travel 2x more (faster)? And by removing middle upper pulley nothing will change?
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    mTOR master daniel327's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post

    I am searching for some time this information and can't find it, no one is really talking about it since pulley is mostly there to make weight feel lighter and easier to pull.
    There is no difference in a pulley system that makes the weight lighter or heavier. All that changes is where you apply the effort and where you attach the load.

    Here's an example:



    Number 2 will effectively double the load by attaching the load to the empty hook and applying your effort to the hook which is shown with the load attached.
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    Originally Posted by daniel327 View Post
    There is no difference in a pulley system that makes the weight lighter or heavier. All that changes is where you apply the effort and where you attach the load.

    Here's an example:



    Number 2 will effectively double the load by attaching the load to the empty hook and applying your effort to the hook which is shown with the load attached.
    ...If we phrase it as "easier to pull for a set distance" then we can see the rationale behind the notion that the pulley weight can be "lighter." Because of the limits of human bodily reach, we don't always understand intuitively or experientially the equivalence of forces in the way they are presented in the diagram. Otherwise we would all be newtonian physicists.
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post
    Yes, that was what i want. Thanks for idea.
    While i was thinking how to make it, i knew that in order to make 2x resistance pulley has to move together with weight (which i see now it was true), but also, if i am correct, weight will now travel 2x more (faster)? And by removing middle upper pulley nothing will change?
    Yes, when you pull the cable, the weight will travel up two feet and the cable end will travel one foot. If you are doing Lat pulldown or low row you do not need a lot of cable travel. If you want to do functional training with lighter weight and quick movements then you want the ratio 2:1 or 4:1 where the 100 pounds equals 50 lbs or 25 lbs of resistance with much more cable travel available. This is what you see in many functional training cable machines. For your purpose to double the weight resistance, you would do something as I suggested.

    By removing one pulley we keep a consistent 200 lbs resistance at both locations for lat pulldown and low row. If you kept a "mid pulley" in for the lower cable system, you would have 200 lbs for lat pulldown and 100 lbs for low row as shown in the third drawing (attached).
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    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ichthis View Post
    ...If we phrase it as "easier to pull for a set distance" then we can see the rationale behind the notion that the pulley weight can be "lighter." Because of the limits of human bodily reach, we don't always understand intuitively or experientially the equivalence of forces in the way they are presented in the diagram. Otherwise we would all be newtonian physicists.
    Yes, i described as "feel", our muscles can feel same weight attached to pulley system either lighter or heavier, which is all we need from gym machine

    Originally Posted by daniel327 View Post
    Number 2 will effectively double the load by attaching the load to the empty hook and applying your effort to the hook which is shown with the load attached.
    Yea, that makes sence now.
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  8. #8
    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    By removing one pulley we keep a consistent 200 lbs resistance at both locations for lat pulldown and low row. If you kept a "mid pulley" in for the lower cable system, you would have 200 lbs for lat pulldown and 100 lbs for low row as shown in the third drawing (attached).
    So, in your Pulley Ratios2 pic, system 3, if i attach upper middle pulley to B and pull from lowest pulley it would give 1:1 ratio of resistance, that is what you are saying?
    Last edited by Mindc; 01-01-2016 at 05:08 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post
    So, in your Pulley Ratios2 pic, system 3, if i attach upper middle pulley to B and pull from lowest pulley it would give 1:1 ratio of resistance, that is what you are saying?
    Yes, if there are carabiners at "A" and "B" in the far right drawing of "Ratios2" and you connect those together with that pulley added as shown, you will have 100 lbs for low row (1:1 ratio with the weight stack).

    PS- I've been following this company for some time. They have some pretty good info on cable/pulley ratios. http://bodyforce.com/glossary-atoz/#c
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    I went a bit deeper in the website (link near bottom), and holy ****, what is that X9 thing? I don't know how it works as a unit, but whoever worked on the design and the attachments/options, bravo. Impressive. Must cost a fortune. It has like $500 just in pop-pins and pulleys
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    Originally Posted by Mech6 View Post
    I went a bit deeper in the website (link near bottom), and holy ****, what is that X9 thing? I don't know how it works as a unit, but whoever worked on the design and the attachments/options, bravo. Impressive. Must cost a fortune. It has like $500 just in pop-pins and pulleys
    I've been watching/waiting for this product for some time. I follow your threads/products as well. I have a strong appreciation for the design philosophy and unique products coming out of both camps. Would love to own something from each of you in the future.
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  12. #12
    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    Yes, if there are carabiners at "A" and "B" in the far right drawing of "Ratios2" and you connect those together with that pulley added as shown, you will have 100 lbs for low row (1:1 ratio with the weight stack).
    So since there is 1 more option, how would drawing look like where resistance is 1:1 ratio on high pulley and on low 2:1?
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    i just cant process...
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  14. #14
    Registered User RandyMcdonald's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post
    So since there is 1 more option, how would drawing look like where resistance is 1:1 ratio on high pulley and on low 2:1?
    There's a couple different ways to do this but see attached for one of these. You will obsserve this starts to get a bit more cumbersome accessing and making configuration changes.

    For 1:1 on the high pulley, attach lat pulldown or triceps rope/bar at "A" (you might need to use some chain to get to the proper height).

    For 2:1 at low pulley for low row/curls connect "A" to "B" and pull on "E".

    When performing lat pulldown you will need to get the strand terminating at "C" and looping at "D" out of the way. Consider using a quick release pin at pulley "D" for removal.
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    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    There's a couple different ways to do this but see attached for one of these. You will obsserve this starts to get a bit more cumbersome accessing and making configuration changes.
    Things are starting to get more complicated here, and that is kinda what i wanted, 1:1 on high and 2:1 on low.
    This is what i think may be better since your systems requires many pulleys and cables, and somehow setup is making high row hard to do since there are cables and pulleys after its attachment.
    First, yellow cable can be attached anywhere on machine. When high row is used C is attached to A and there is 1:1 ratio, when low row is used C has to be detached and B attached to A which will make 2:1.
    What do you think?
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post
    Things are starting to get more complicated here, and that is kinda what i wanted, 1:1 on high and 2:1 on low.
    This is what i think may be better since your systems requires many pulleys and cables, and somehow setup is making high row hard to do since there are cables and pulleys after its attachment.
    First, yellow cable can be attached anywhere on machine. When high row is used C is attached to A and there is 1:1 ratio, when low row is used C has to be detached and B attached to A which will make 2:1.
    What do you think?
    Not quite. As I said earlier, there are multiple ways to accomplish this. Your suggestion does not. However, your proposed drawing does illuminate another way, better than my earlier proposal.

    Assuming ball stops at the end of cables "D" and "E", connect *"A" and "B" for 1:1 at "D" and 2:1 at "E" achieving your goal. If you connected your yellow cable ("C") to "A" as you propose, it would still be 2:1 when you desire 1:1. See image below.

    It begs the question why you want 1:1 for lat pull and double that for low row. I assume you will have at least 200 lbs of weight as that is a common amount people like to have available for lat pulldown.

    *"A" and "B" connection point can be eliminated and just use a single strand of cable.

    Last edited by RandyMcdonald; 01-02-2016 at 04:53 PM.
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    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    *"A" and "B" connection point can be eliminated and just use a single strand of cable.
    Lol yea, idk why i added yellow in the first place. So there should not be yellow cable, nor C, A and B, only E and D with balls on their ends.

    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    It begs the question why you want 1:1 for lat pull and double that for low row. I assume you will have at least 200 lbs of weight as that is a common amount people like to have available for lat pulldown.
    It feels awkward to pull together pulley with attachment for lat (see first pic from ur posts, Pulley Ratios) Idk how will look like in real life when i make it, but now thinking about it it looks strange. Also idk how will fact that weight is going 2x faster when i'm doing triceps pull down play out, if i make there 1:1 than i will 100% have enough cable length.
    And 2:1 for lower i want bcs i'm planing to do quad exercises, so it is better option to make resistance 2x via pulley system than to get new weight plates.
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post
    Lol yea, idk why i added yellow in the first place. So there should not be yellow cable, nor C, A and B, only E and D with balls on their ends.
    Correct

    It feels awkward to pull together pulley with attachment for lat (see first pic from ur posts, Pulley Ratios) Idk how will look like in real life when i make it, but now thinking about it it looks strange. Also idk how will fact that weight is going 2x faster when i'm doing triceps pull down play out, if i make there 1:1 than i will 100% have enough cable length.
    I see your logic. Figuring out the required distance would not be hard but it seems there is now a good plan to achieve your goal with 1:1 at the top


    And 2:1 for lower i want bcs i'm planing to do quad exercises, so it is better option to make resistance 2x via pulley system than to get new weight plates.
    OK, that makes sense if you are using the low pulley for cable squats.

    It seems you might be from outside the USA. Where are you from? Be sure to take some pictures/videos and show us your creation when you are finished!
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  19. #19
    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    I see your logic. Figuring out the required distance would not be hard but it seems there is now a good plan to achieve your goal with 1:1 at the top
    I would have to have than 2 different cables since actual movement in lat pull down starts at top (hands over head), and for triceps from around chest high, pulling same cable all the way to chest and than from chest to down would get weight to the top before finishing full movement.

    While searching how to make 2:1 ratio, i found out for this site: inspirefitness.net/catalog/categories.php
    This machine (link 1) has 2 things that i do not want. leg curl and bench press options, but apart from that it has 1:1 high row, 0.5:1 middle row and 2:1 low row. in order to use 2:1 low row machine from link 2 has to be added.
    Link 1 inspirefitness.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=30&pn=M2%20Multi%20Gy m
    Link 2 inspirefitness.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=39&pn=Leg%20Press%20O ption%20for%20M-Series%20Gyms*

    Looking at Leg press machine (link 2), the secret to 2:1 ratio is last pulley, so till that pulley ratio is 1:1. This gave me idea how it could be also done which i presented in Pulley Ratios4 (it is not my favorite way tho)

    This machine in link 1 gave me idea that i could also use middle pulley for some functional movements. In link 1, under HELP DOCS there is manual with charts of pulley systems. Any ideas for some simpler design than that?
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post
    I would have to have than 2 different cables since actual movement in lat pull down starts at top (hands over head), and for triceps from around chest high, pulling same cable all the way to chest and than from chest to down would get weight to the top before finishing full movement.
    Not true. We have simplified the design, don't over complicate it now Just use a piece of chain to adjust the starting position for triceps extension.



    While searching how to make 2:1 ratio, i found out for this site: inspirefitness.net/catalog/categories.php
    This machine (link 1) has 2 things that i do not want. leg curl and bench press options, but apart from that it has 1:1 high row, 0.5:1 middle row and 2:1 low row. in order to use 2:1 low row machine from link 2 has to be added.
    Link 1 inspirefitness.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=30&pn=M2%20Multi%20Gy m
    Link 2 inspirefitness.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=39&pn=Leg%20Press%20O ption%20for%20M-Series%20Gyms*

    Looking at Leg press machine (link 2), the secret to 2:1 ratio is last pulley, so till that pulley ratio is 1:1. This gave me idea how it could be also done which i presented in Pulley Ratios4 (it is not my favorite way tho)
    You're design at the bottom will not work well. The looped pulley will not be stable at varying angles.



    This machine in link 1 gave me idea that i could also use middle pulley for some functional movements. In link 1, under HELP DOCS there is manual with charts of pulley systems. Any ideas for some simpler design than that?
    You could certainly create a mid pulley but you will need to add some segments to your frame near "F" (top image) to create an anchor point for the mid pulley.
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    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    Not true. We have simplified the design, don't over complicate it now Just use a piece of chain to adjust the starting position for triceps extension.
    Nice idea with chain, but u posted wrong img. U posted where at high row is 1:1 which means i can pull all the way to down without adding nothing (weight will still not go to top). In img in ur first post called Pulley Ratios is where this would work good.

    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    You're design at the bottom will not work well. The looped pulley will not be stable at varying angles.
    Well my design on bottom is kinda same as ur design in img Pulley ratios Just in that design pulley is at top. Thats why i sad all that things how it will look awkward etc

    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    You could certainly create a mid pulley but you will need to add some segments to your frame near "F" (top image) to create an anchor point for the mid pulley.
    Yes, and how would than all cable thing work? Since there should be 0.5:1 ratio to provide cable length(lower and upper pulleys can be set to 2:1 ratio both or upper 1:1 and lower 2:1). Do u have some ideas?
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    As mentioned earlier there are multiple ways to do this but here is a configuration that I believe accomplishes all of your goals for today The top/front pulley is unlinked to ".5 pulley" when using for lat pulldown/triceps extension. Use the chain to get proper height for triceps extension.

    Last edited by RandyMcdonald; 01-03-2016 at 04:16 PM.
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  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post
    Nice idea with chain, but u posted wrong img. U posted where at high row is 1:1 which means i can pull all the way to down without adding nothing (weight will still not go to top). In img in ur first post called Pulley Ratios is where this would work good.
    I think you are confused. This design would work fine. Weight would go from bottom to the top. Keep in mind the bottom low row cable must be anchored with a ball stop for this to work.

    Well my design on bottom is kinda same as ur design in img Pulley ratios Just in that design pulley is at top. Thats why i sad all that things how it will look awkward etc
    Not the same. It makes a big difference where you are using this type of configuration. If a cable is pulled directly straight up or down it is OK. If you are pulling on it at different angles it does not work so good.

    Yes, and how would than all cable thing work? Since there should be 0.5:1 ratio to provide cable length(lower and upper pulleys can be set to 2:1 ratio both or upper 1:1 and lower 2:1). Do u have some ideas?
    See final drawing directly above this post.
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  24. #24
    Registered User Mindc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    See final drawing directly above this post.
    Nice, i think u gave me now all designs out there! I like the last design most Thanks allot again
    Also, pulley can be added where is weight, same setup can be put on one more side of machine, and we got easy way to make at home professional lookalike gym, like all Functional Training machines are offering (example: youtube.com/watch?v=sNP4f3c5Los)
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  25. #25
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    Originally Posted by Mindc View Post
    Nice, i think u gave me now all designs out there! I like the last design most Thanks allot again
    Also, pulley can be added where is weight, same setup can be put on one more side of machine, and we got easy way to make at home professional lookalike gym, like all Functional Training machines are offering (example: youtube.com/watch?v=sNP4f3c5Los)
    Glad I could help. Be sure to share pictures with us when you build your functional trainer
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  26. #26
    RL Erik 'Iwhspr Fe comes' matrix563's Avatar
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    wheres kbkb? he was always best at explaining this stuff.
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  27. #27
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    Originally Posted by RandyMcdonald View Post
    Glad I could help. Be sure to share pictures with us when you build your functional trainer
    Had to bump this thread.

    I've got an old Quantum dual pulley adjustable cable column shown here, and it's got an extra cable and extra pulleys built into its design, so I'm guessing the cables can be rerouted to reduce resistance from what I believe is a 2:1 ratio now - but I want to change it to 1:1, or even 1:2.

    Is there an easy way to do this given the existing design?

    Thank you!
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    Anyone??????


    Originally Posted by xthanosx View Post
    had to bump this thread.

    I've got an old quantum dual pulley adjustable cable column shown here, and it's got an extra cable and extra pulleys built into its design, so i'm guessing the cables can be rerouted to reduce resistance from what i believe is a 2:1 ratio now - but i want to change it to 1:1, or even 1:2.

    Is there an easy way to do this given the existing design?

    Thank you!
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