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  1. #1
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    All Pro's: Butchered Edition

    We all know and love All Pro's Simple Beginners Routine. It's a staple program here. But there are some areas in which, based on personal and professional experience, I feel it falls short, so I'm posting this to broadly suggest some modifications. I know that by virtue of posting this, if I called it anything other than All Pro's it would be called a cheap knock-off, and if I didn't call it All Pro's it would cause a lot of revile because changes mean YNDTP (which is apparently a grave moral, intellectual and physical evil), thus, cutting to the chase, I present All Pro's: Butchered Edition.

    Here I'll propose 3 changes: 1 change in exercise selection, and 2 changes in progression. The changes in progression are mutually exclusive -- by their nature you can do one but not the other. You can use any of these modifications. Or you can give me the finger and use the original program as is. I've provided reasons to employ these modifications. Use your wisdom and consider whether or not those reasons apply to you.

    Exercise Selection

    For the most part we'll use the same exercises in the same order as the original program. The only modification we'll make here is that instead of curls, we're going to use lat pull downs, or a pull up/chin up variation that you can realistically progress in an 8-12 rep range for (which, for most people starting out, would be some kind of assisted pull up). It's not incredibly important which vertical pull you use, so long as you can safely perform it in the 8-12 rep range. The reason for this modification is that, frankly, a couple sets of rows and SLDLs is not preferable for back work. The addition of a vertical pull will increase overall back volume and work the lower traps, lats and rear delts from a different angle. Also, your shoulders will thank you for balancing scapular retraction exercises (upper body pulls) with upper body pushes.

    If after this modification, you feel you're no longer getting enough arm work in your program, then add curls back in at the end of the workout, alongside a triceps isolation exercise (eg lying triceps extension, standing triceps extension, cable pushdown). For each set of curls, do a set of triceps. I don't recommend using a compound triceps exercise, because that will invariably bring in the anterior deltoids and pecs to some degree -- balancing out the difference between push and pull was the reason for pull ups/downs instead of curls in the first place.

    Progression: Butchered Edition 1

    In my experience, it's normal for a beginner to do 2x8 and be ready to do 2x9 (or even more reps) with the same weight the next time they walk through the gym door. So, as a total beginner, we're going to progress far more aggressively than All Pro recommends. Instead of a 5 week cycle, we're going to use a 2 week cycle.

    Day 1: 2x8
    Day 2: 2x9
    Day 3: 2x10
    Day 4: 2x11
    Day 5: 2x12
    Day 6: 1xAMRAP (as many reps as possible (with decent form))

    The caveat to this aggressive progression of reps each workout is that we won't add 10% in the next cycle unless we get 16+ reps on Day 6. If we get 13-15 reps, make it 5%. If it's 12 reps or less, use the same weight for the next cycle. So:

    Day 6 reps: <12: Increase weight by 0%
    Day 6 reps: 13-15: Increase weight by 5%
    Day 6 reps: >16: Increase weight by 10%

    This will average out to a fairly similar rate of overall weight increase. So, why do harder work for about the same amount of long term weight on the bar? Because doing the same reps at the same tempo with the same amount of rest but at less weight throughout the week is an arbitrary reduction in workload, which is an arbitrary reduction in training stimulus, which suggests an arbitrary reduction in potential results.

    Progress: Butchered Edition 2

    In this version, we'll stick with the 5 week progression cycle, and the varying intensities throughout the week. However, we'll use the changes in intensity to increase volume on the day.

    Heavy Day: Perform prescribed sets and reps (eg, if week 1 perform 2x8)
    Moderate Day: Perform prescribed sets and reps+2 (eg, if week 1 perform 2x10)
    Light Day: Perform prescribed sets and reps+4 (eg, if week 1 perform 2x12)

    Again, the intention here is to get more out of the training week. The amount of weight added each cycle will be about the same. You might find that the extra training stimulus gives you more strength endurance and allows you to add 10% to your exercises more consistently. You might find that your recovery isn't so great, in which case it might be better to switch back to the original program. But you won't know how easily you can recover and progress unless you test your recovery ability through harder methods.

    My personal experience is that less weight only results in enhanced results when that reduction in weight is used to apply more in some capacity: more speed, more reps, more sweat, more technique focus, more practice, etc. In 6 years I've never trained a beginner who needed reduced weight for recovery, yet I've had plenty of experience to say that decreasing weight when it isn't needed results in people having less experience lifting heavy weights, so my experience and observations don't support the standard training week laid out in the original program. But your mileage may vary. Again, use your wisdom here in determining whether you'll use some of this or none of this.
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  2. #2
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    I like what you have done, and i agree with the chinups (since curls was just put in for the curl bros), however i would change one thing. Your progression pattern for V1. Your min progression is 10%, but you have shorted the cycle by one week, down to 4 weeks. I would have a grinders addition, say if you got less than 12 reps, increase by 2.5lbs or something. A real world weight increase (2.5lbs can be added with $5 in chains) for people who cant progress at 10% per month. This 5% per month pattern could be a several month bridge before they go to an intermediate routine, or incase they had a bad day, semi injured, tired from moving couches, just got over a cold.

    The real problem with allpro's is the soul sucking failed test day, which causes you to spend another 5 weeks with the same weight.
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    lagging quads connorpat1995's Avatar
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    Looks a lot better for a novice on a bulk, have you had anybody run this yet?
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    It's Over 9000!!! rdferguson's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    I like what you have done, and i agree with the chinups (since curls was just put in for the curl bros), however i would change one thing. Your progression pattern for V1. Your min progression is 10%, but you have shorted the cycle by one week, down to 4 weeks. I would have a grinders addition, say if you got less than 12 reps, increase by 2.5lbs or something. A real world weight increase (2.5lbs can be added with $5 in chains) for people who cant progress at 10% per month. This 5% per month pattern could be a several month bridge before they go to an intermediate routine, or incase they had a bad day, semi injured, tired from moving couches, just got over a cold.

    The real problem with allpro's is the soul sucking failed test day, which causes you to spend another 5 weeks with the same weight.
    Hmm, I hear where you're coming from. I can definitely see how doing the same weights for 10 weeks straight due to missing 1 rep on 1 workout would feel pretty crappy. The most important thing I want to reinforce here is to use your wisdom. If you get to the end of a cycle and you're missing reps, consider why that is. If it's just a crappy day and you're confident that you're ready to increase the weight, do it. If you know that you were never going to get your target reps on the day, then you're probably not ready to move up to the next weight. So a 2.5lb or 2.5% increase for <12 reps might be the wise thing to do, or it may stand to reason that you should restrain yourself. If that's the only day in which you're missing reps, then you probably won't harm yourself by adding weight, even if it does turn out that maintaining weight would have been wiser in that particular instance.
    Originally Posted by connorpat1995 View Post
    Looks a lot better for a novice on a bulk, have you had anybody run this yet?
    Not directly, although I've used the principles here a lot with great success. I have made these suggestions to people on these forums before, so some might have taken my advice. Whether or not they've run with it, and what impact these changes have had if so, is a mystery.

    My own clients generally get a bit more variety in their programs. More exercises tend to get used, not just for the enjoyment of doing something different/novel (although that has it's place), but because no single exercise is the best for most purposes. So, a client learning to squat might do a few weeks of box squats, then a few weeks of pause squats, then alternate between front and back squats. I also use various methods of progression, but the primary ones are either dual-linear (work through a rep range, increase weight, repeat) or linear periodisation (start out with higher reps and lower weight, drop off reps as the weight piles up), with a penchant for auto-regulation. Auto-regulation has been important in showing me that, technique pending, most beginners can progress even more rapidly than what I've recommended here.

    In saying all that, if any beginners see this thread and like the modifications, I'd love to see how they go at implementing them, and get a general feel for the kinds of experiences people get from this.
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  5. #5
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    Bumped for more exposure to see comments.
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    #tallpeopleproblems unstrong's Avatar
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    I think all/either of your proposed changes are positive ones to the original all pros. Your routine is both more balanced and progresses more reasonably for a true novice, which are valid criticisms of the original AP:SBR.
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    I've just about exhausted my linear progression on SS (link to log in my sig). I incorporated weighted/bodyweight chins and curls into SS and my arms have grew like wildfire. So I would say curls are fine one day of the week as long as you're not going full potato doing a trillion sets.
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    Thankyou for posting this, sending Reps your way.

    I started Allpros Routine and I've just finished Cycle 1 Week 4. The start of the week (Heavy Day) was farked for me cause I missed Squats by 2 reps on last set as well as failing 1 rep on my last set of OHP.
    I'm currently bulking and wanting to gain muscle as well as strength. So I guess my questions are should I continue with AllPros Original Routine or upgrade to this as I'm after some good gains while on my first bulking sesh.
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    Looks a lot better for a novice on a bulk, have you had anybody run this yet?
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    I didn't read the entire thing but I liked everything that I did read. Lots of sound thinking in here. My only concern is that of substantially more aggressive progression combined with using high reps. I initially tried a high rep option (3x10) in the F5 novice program and no one did well at high reps with similar progression to what you've outlined here.

    Not trying to be negative; just wanted to voice my opinion. I like it.
    I like seeing people posting their own opinion! I'm guessing that the aggressive approach won't work when you hit heavy weight cause youll get fatigued before hitting high reps. So is this when you should change programs? Btw mirin your bench brah
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    It's Over 9000!!! rdferguson's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by harryboyo View Post
    I've just about exhausted my linear progression on SS (link to log in my sig). I incorporated weighted/bodyweight chins and curls into SS and my arms have grew like wildfire. So I would say curls are fine one day of the week as long as you're not going full potato doing a trillion sets.
    Good job. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with curls at all. It's all about context.
    Originally Posted by TwistdMetal View Post
    Thankyou for posting this, sending Reps your way.

    I started Allpros Routine and I've just finished Cycle 1 Week 4. The start of the week (Heavy Day) was farked for me cause I missed Squats by 2 reps on last set as well as failing 1 rep on my last set of OHP.
    I'm currently bulking and wanting to gain muscle as well as strength. So I guess my questions are should I continue with AllPros Original Routine or upgrade to this as I'm after some good gains while on my first bulking sesh.
    It sounds like you might have started too heavy, if you're missing reps in the first cycle, but there could be another explanation (eg strength endurance and your body might not agree with each other -- real life case in point, my best OHP is just shy of my bodyweight, but get me to do 3x10 with an empty barbell and I'll be struggling). If you're certain that your starting weight was appropriate and the original program isn't working, maybe try the 2nd version that I posted up here. The first one probably won't suit you, as it has you working your way through the reps even faster than you have been -- if you can't get all the reps at the original rate of progression, then you probably won't get them at an accelerated rate, either.
    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    I didn't read the entire thing but I liked everything that I did read. Lots of sound thinking in here. My only concern is that of substantially more aggressive progression combined with using high reps. I initially tried a high rep option (3x10) in the F5 novice program and no one did well at high reps with similar progression to what you've outlined here.

    Not trying to be negative; just wanted to voice my opinion. I like it.
    I see where you're coming from. If you're doing 3x5 of something, adding 2.5kg is invariably a smaller % increase than if you were doing 3x10 of it.

    If it were aggressive addition of weight (eg 3x10, add weight every time you get all target reps), that would probably be a bigger consideration. In my experience, on most exercises it's rare that a beginner can't add reps from workout to workout. I'm actually used to my beginners progressing more aggressively than this when we use rep progressions, typically going up 1-3 reps at a time. So, based on what I've observed, this kind of progression is fairly realistic. In saying that, in person we can dial things up or dial them back on a whim, so that flows into things quite naturally. And, as always, your mileage may vary.

    Just to make a comparison, say you have two beginners, both starting out with 100lb squats. Let's say lifter A does Butchered Edition 1, and lifter B does 3x10 adding weight every time. After 2 weeks, lifter A is now going to be squatting 105-110lb; lifter B will be squatting 125lb. After another 2 weeks, lifter A is up to 110-120lb; lifter B is up to 155lb. If some sort of periodisation plan isn't present, it's easy to foresee lifter B stalling pretty soon, if not already, whereas lifter A probably has many more cycles available.

    Certainly, this will be too aggressive for some, and too tame for others. As people try it, time will tell as to how broadly successful it is. I expect good things from this, but I've been wrong before. It's all a learning experience.
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    Reps for the thoughtful post and discussion. I ran All Pro for a year, and here's my .02.

    I really like the pullups for curls replacement. I'm sure All Pro would say he didn't include pullups because a lot of beginners can't do them. But your entire rationale for including pullups or assisted pullups is spot on.

    To be honest, I'm not a fan of either progression scheme. First of all, simplicity itself is a benefit of a given program's design, and the original seems easier to understand/follow, if the overall rate of weight increase in the end is similar as you say.

    Also, and more importantly, you've completely removed the cyclic deloads. Built-in deloads is a big benefit of the original, as the beginner trainee doesn't have to think of them or even know the concept of what a deload is, it's just already built in. You could add a deload protocol too, but then you're just complicating it further.

    Progression 1: If I'm reading it right, trainee does 2x10 of their 10RM at the end of Wk 1, so working at/near failure really, then the following week pushes. 2x11 at their prior 10RM weight if they can, then 2x12 if they can, then 2xAMRAP (sounds kind of brutal actually, as I type it out). If they don't get at least 2x12, then they go right back to a week where they finishes doing 2x10 at their 10RM, with no deload week. Am I reading that right?

    Progression 2: By my math, with this progression scheme, the total tonnage of Week 1 of each new cycle will almost that of the previous cycle's Wk4 of the original's progression scheme (where they were already doing 2x11 of their 10RM). So again, no deload really.

    Peronally I might've been able to do this for my first cycle or two maybe, but by the time I was a few cycles in those 8 rep deload weeks were awesome. I'm worried people will get fried on your progression scheme. Just my .02 though, everybody responds differently, and maybe I'm just a wuss.
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    lagging quads connorpat1995's Avatar
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    If I understand correctly, a deload would be repeating the weight if the trainee failed the AMRAP. This would pit him/her using something close to their 12RM for 8 reps.
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    Originally Posted by connorpat1995 View Post
    If I understand correctly, a deload would be repeating the weight if the trainee failed the AMRAP. This would pit him/her using something close to their 12RM for 8 reps.
    So week 1 you start with your 10RM weight, doing 2x8 then 2x9, and then 2x10 (which should be at/near failure if you started at the right 10RM weight). If on week 2 you hit 2x12 on Wed (phenomenal 5-day gain, BTW, congrats to you) BUT then fail the AMRAP 1x13 on Friday somehow so don't advance the weight, I think you're right. But let's say you can't even hit 2x11 on Monday at your week prior's 10RM, which is going to start happening before long. Then your 10RM hasn't advanced, so doing 2x10 the following week Friday is at/near failure again, no? Or am I missing something?

    Edit: Also, who in the sam hill is ever hitting 1x16 at their prior week's 10RM weight?
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    Originally Posted by rdferguson View Post

    Progression: Butchered Edition 1

    In my experience, it's normal for a beginner to do 2x8 and be ready to do 2x9 (or even more reps) with the same weight the next time they walk through the gym door. So, as a total beginner, we're going to progress far more aggressively than All Pro recommends. Instead of a 5 week cycle, we're going to use a 2 week cycle.

    Day 1: 2x8
    Day 2: 2x9
    Day 3: 2x10
    Day 4: 2x11
    Day 5: 2x12
    Day 6: 1xAMRAP (as many reps as possible (with decent form))

    The caveat to this aggressive progression of reps each workout is that we won't add 10% in the next cycle unless we get 16+ reps on Day 6. If we get 13-15 reps, make it 5%. If it's 12 reps or less, use the same weight for the next cycle. So:

    Day 6 reps: <12: Increase weight by 0%
    Day 6 reps: 13-15: Increase weight by 5%
    Day 6 reps: >16: Increase weight by 10%
    Sorry if I'm being stupid, but isn't AllPro's routine a 3 days a week program?
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    Originally Posted by rpedrosb View Post
    Sorry if I'm being stupid, but isn't AllPro's routine a 3 days a week program?
    By days, he means days in the gym, gym sessions, I think, hence the 2 week cycle with 6 days (3/week). So day 1 is Monday, day 2 is Wednesday, so on. Correct me if I'm wrong OP.

    Also, it's a good routine, wasn't gonna respond, was just gonna rep you, you deserve it, but thought I'd chuck this reply in while I'm at it. Now you just need some people to run it, and see what they get from it. Awesome contribution, a decent variation of an already popular proven routine, you're definitely going the right direction with this.
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    I'm appreciating all the thoughts and feedback, guys.
    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    I probably should have given more details concerning progression. I had people doing 3x10 and adding 5lbs a week to upper and 10lbs a week for lower. In 2-3 months time the results were far less significant for the group doing 3x10 vs 3x5.

    Having said that, I didn't monitor diet or starting weights so the results could be conceived as inconclusive. I only had a dozen or so people running both. In the grand scheme of things the sample wise was relatively small. It did leave me to believe there was some reasoning behind there not being similar progression with a high rep program. Too many variables that I couldn't monitor though, so again, take it with some salt I suppose.
    Interesting food for thought. Thanks for that.
    Originally Posted by banjoman23 View Post
    Reps for the thoughtful post and discussion. I ran All Pro for a year, and here's my .02.

    I really like the pullups for curls replacement. I'm sure All Pro would say he didn't include pullups because a lot of beginners can't do them. But your entire rationale for including pullups or assisted pullups is spot on.

    To be honest, I'm not a fan of either progression scheme. First of all, simplicity itself is a benefit of a given program's design, and the original seems easier to understand/follow, if the overall rate of weight increase in the end is similar as you say.

    Also, and more importantly, you've completely removed the cyclic deloads. Built-in deloads is a big benefit of the original, as the beginner trainee doesn't have to think of them or even know the concept of what a deload is, it's just already built in. You could add a deload protocol too, but then you're just complicating it further.

    Progression 1: If I'm reading it right, trainee does 2x10 of their 10RM at the end of Wk 1, so working at/near failure really, then the following week pushes. 2x11 at their prior 10RM weight if they can, then 2x12 if they can, then 2xAMRAP (sounds kind of brutal actually, as I type it out). If they don't get at least 2x12, then they go right back to a week where they finishes doing 2x10 at their 10RM, with no deload week. Am I reading that right?

    Progression 2: By my math, with this progression scheme, the total tonnage of Week 1 of each new cycle will almost that of the previous cycle's Wk4 of the original's progression scheme (where they were already doing 2x11 of their 10RM). So again, no deload really.

    Peronally I might've been able to do this for my first cycle or two maybe, but by the time I was a few cycles in those 8 rep deload weeks were awesome. I'm worried people will get fried on your progression scheme. Just my .02 though, everybody responds differently, and maybe I'm just a wuss.
    The cyclic deload is still there. You go from 2x12 (or 1x13+, depending on which option it is) 2x8 the next week with 5-10% more weight, which is at most where All Pro takes you.

    For a genuine beginner, just testing your 10RM will increase your 10RM. Like I've said, I frequently experience beginners progressing more aggressively than this, but I've also had some who wouldn't make it through the first cycle of the original AP program without burning out.

    Progression 1 is 1XAMRAP, ie you warm up then go all out for a single set, provided you can maintain safe technique. So it's only half as brutal :P But yeah, there's nothing about that training day that would be easy. By all means, if easy is the goal, the original program has 2 easy days a week.
    Originally Posted by banjoman23 View Post
    So week 1 you start with your 10RM weight, doing 2x8 then 2x9, and then 2x10 (which should be at/near failure if you started at the right 10RM weight). If on week 2 you hit 2x12 on Wed (phenomenal 5-day gain, BTW, congrats to you) BUT then fail the AMRAP 1x13 on Friday somehow so don't advance the weight, I think you're right. But let's say you can't even hit 2x11 on Monday at your week prior's 10RM, which is going to start happening before long. Then your 10RM hasn't advanced, so doing 2x10 the following week Friday is at/near failure again, no? Or am I missing something?

    Edit: Also, who in the sam hill is ever hitting 1x16 at their prior week's 10RM weight?
    I recently had a female client struggle doing 3x6x40kg squats one week, and turn 40kg into a widowmaker two weeks later. That's an exceptional circumstance, but provided technique is good, beginners can typically progress just by looking at the bar. Because of so many inhibiting factors when we start training, exorbitant rep progressions are not unusual. Notably, 1x16 isn't the goal, 1x13 is. Probably should have specified. I just wanted to give an option there to let people who are making ridonculous progress move ahead accordingly, rather than use arbitrarily low weights.
    Originally Posted by CJ93UK View Post
    By days, he means days in the gym, gym sessions, I think, hence the 2 week cycle with 6 days (3/week). So day 1 is Monday, day 2 is Wednesday, so on. Correct me if I'm wrong OP.

    Also, it's a good routine, wasn't gonna respond, was just gonna rep you, you deserve it, but thought I'd chuck this reply in while I'm at it. Now you just need some people to run it, and see what they get from it. Awesome contribution, a decent variation of an already popular proven routine, you're definitely going the right direction with this.
    You are correct. Thankyou.
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    Good post, i might try it like this since i feel the original progresses too slowly, which progression version would you recommend i do out of the two?.
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    Also, would it be okay to replace the squats with front squats and stiff-leg deads with romanian deads?, so the routine would look like this instead:

    Front Squat
    RDL
    Bench Press
    Pendlay Rows
    OHP
    Lat Pulldowns
    Tricep Extensions
    Barbell Curls
    Calf Raises
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    Chins/pulldowns instead of curls is a good idea, I generally dislike programs with no vertical pull. I also like the idea of a more aggressive progression, this is also why I never suggest the original template.

    I think the rep range is way too high to allow for an aggressive progression. I'd use 2-3x6-10, which an AMRAP week like you suggested. I think that progression would be be much faster this way.
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    Originally Posted by LiftHeavyShizz View Post
    Good post, i might try it like this since i feel the original progresses too slowly, which progression version would you recommend i do out of the two?.
    If you want to add weight more frequently, the first. If you want to make use of the varying weights throughout the week (effectively practicing daily undulating periodisation), do the second.
    Originally Posted by LiftHeavyShizz View Post
    Also, would it be okay to replace the squats with front squats and stiff-leg deads with romanian deads?, so the routine would look like this instead:

    Front Squat
    RDL
    Bench Press
    Pendlay Rows
    OHP
    Lat Pulldowns
    Tricep Extensions
    Barbell Curls
    Calf Raises
    I generally find front squats are harder to progress than back squats, and are a bit more technical, making them better suited to low reps. But if you feel confident to be doing sets of 8+ front squats and would prefer them over back squats, give it a try and see how that works. In my books, RDLs and SLDLs can usually replace each other without having a negative impact.
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    Originally Posted by rdferguson View Post
    If you want to add weight more frequently, the first. If you want to make use of the varying weights throughout the week (effectively practicing daily undulating periodisation), do the second.

    I generally find front squats are harder to progress than back squats, and are a bit more technical, making them better suited to low reps. But if you feel confident to be doing sets of 8+ front squats and would prefer them over back squats, give it a try and see how that works. In my books, RDLs and SLDLs can usually replace each other without having a negative impact.
    Ok, thanks, also im a bit confused on progression 2, it says for the first week do 2x8 for heavy, 2x10 for medium, 2x12 for light, but for the following week do we do the same thing with the same amount of weight, or increase weight?, if its the latter wouldn't that equate to faster progression then the first progression version?.
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    Hey, what do you think about using a progression in which you use a 3 week cycle instead of 5, and add 2 reps weekly instead of 1?, so basically first week do 2x8, second week 2x10, third week 2x12, then add 10 percent to your lifts in week 4 and go back down to 2x8, what do you think about this?.
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    This is very interesting. As I had considered the bicep to be the penis of the upper body, had already been wanting to replace the bicep curls with something that's just more useful (back, shoulders, abs).

    Assuming I'm replacing the curls, and looking to add upright row as an extra lift once I get past cycle 3, should I add chin-ups or pull ups as the substitute for the bicep curls? Wide grip or narrow?
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    Originally Posted by LiftHeavyShizz View Post
    Ok, thanks, also im a bit confused on progression 2, it says for the first week do 2x8 for heavy, 2x10 for medium, 2x12 for light, but for the following week do we do the same thing with the same amount of weight, or increase weight?, if its the latter wouldn't that equate to faster progression then the first progression version?.
    So, progression 2 uses the same rep progression on Monday as the original AP program, and the same weight progression (+10% each cycle). The difference is that instead of doing the same number of reps throughout the week, as you decrease the weight you increase the reps. The full training cycle would look like this:

    Week 1
    Day 1: 2x8x100%
    Day 2: 2x10x90%
    Day 3: 2x12x80%

    Week 2
    Day 1: 2x9x100%
    Day 2: 2x11x90%
    Day 3: 2x13x80%

    Week 3
    Day 1: 2x10x100%
    Day 2: 2x12x90%
    Day 3: 2x14x80%

    Week 4
    Day 1: 2x11x100%
    Day 2: 2x12x90%
    Day 3: 2x15x80%

    Week 5
    Day 1: 2x12x100%
    Day 2: 2x14x90%
    Day 3: 2x16x80%

    Then you would increase your Day 1 weight by 10% for the next training cycle, and recalculate your weights based on that.
    Originally Posted by LiftHeavyShizz View Post
    Hey, what do you think about using a progression in which you use a 3 week cycle instead of 5, and add 2 reps weekly instead of 1?, so basically first week do 2x8, second week 2x10, third week 2x12, then add 10 percent to your lifts in week 4 and go back down to 2x8, what do you think about this?.
    You could try that. Your mileage may vary. On the one hand, as I've said, I'm used to seeing beginners add multiple reps at a time between workouts. On the other hand, the more rapidly you add 10% to your lifts, the sooner you're likely to stall. Note that the first progression I recommended does allow the possibility of adding 10% every fortnight, but only if your strength endurance is progressing at exceptional rates (you're hitting 16+ reps at the end of the 2 week cycle). As always, there are pros and cons. If you're comfortable progressing at that rate for a few cycles, I see no reason not to. When you can't progress at the rate anymore, take a chill pill and back off the throttle.
    Originally Posted by BrianJ0101 View Post
    This is very interesting. As I had considered the bicep to be the penis of the upper body, had already been wanting to replace the bicep curls with something that's just more useful (back, shoulders, abs).

    Assuming I'm replacing the curls, and looking to add upright row as an extra lift once I get past cycle 3, should I add chin-ups or pull ups as the substitute for the bicep curls? Wide grip or narrow?
    Depends, although the short answer is, without very specific factors being considered, it probably doesn't matter which one you use. Most people find chin ups easier, so maybe start with them and progress to pull ups later. Personally, my shoulders crunch and grind doing chin ups but are more than happy to do pull ups, so that's where my training leads me.

    I'd note that upright rows are a compound exercise that work both the medial delt and the biceps, so you'll probably want something for your triceps to keep everything balanced.
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    Originally Posted by rdferguson View Post
    Depends, although the short answer is, without very specific factors being considered, it probably doesn't matter which one you use. Most people find chin ups easier, so maybe start with them and progress to pull ups later. Personally, my shoulders crunch and grind doing chin ups but are more than happy to do pull ups, so that's where my training leads me.

    I'd note that upright rows are a compound exercise that work both the medial delt and the biceps, so you'll probably want something for your triceps to keep everything balanced.
    Any downside in going with lat pulldowns instead of chin/pull ups?
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    Originally Posted by Popocub View Post
    Any downside in going with lat pulldowns instead of chin/pull ups?
    It's a good sub if you can not manage to do many chins/PU's
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    Originally Posted by HunterMC6 View Post
    It's a good sub if you can not manage to do many chins/PU's
    This. You'll also probably find it easier to progress consistently on lat pull downs, even if you can do plenty of chins/pull ups.
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    im in cycle 2, week 4 of the original all pro's
    what if i had been doing upright rows instead of bicep curls all this while, advisable to switch to a lat pulldown/chin ups?
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    Why would you not want to switch it given the information presented?

    You have SLDL-upward pull, BOR-arguably an upward pull, upright rows-upward pull. For christ sake the last thing the program needed was another upward pull (upright row.) It needs a downward pull like that of pull/chin ups or lat pulldowns.
    cos i had been following the original all pro's this while?
    so lat pulldowns or chin ups are better?
    sorry still new to all this
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