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  1. #1
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    Casey Butt Calculators and My Results

    Today I decided to use Casey Butt's Maximum LBM Calculator to see how much potential I have and something just doesn't add up.

    (Conservative) Measurements:
    Height: 73.5"
    Wrist: 6.75"
    Ankle: 9.25"
    BF% Inputted: 10%

    Results: At 10% BF, I could weigh up to 214.6 lbs. This equals out to 193.14 lbs of LBM.

    According to his Rate of Gain Formula, with a wrist measurement of 6.75", I should be able to add 27.33 lbs of muscle in 10 years. Consider this is approaching the most muscle any drug-free bodybuilder will build.

    End with 193.14 lbs of LBM - 27.33 lbs of LBM gained in 10 years = 165.81 lbs of LBM to begin with.

    Stay with me.

    According to a recent post I made asking for a body fat percentage, the consensus was I was 190 lbs at 17-18% BF. This equals out to 157.7 lbs of LBM AT MOST (17% BF instead of 18%)

    How is this possible?

    I have reached intermediate strength levels (Exrx), been lifting for 2.5 years, normal testosterone levels, and STILL do not have as much muscle as the calculator predicts I should have UNTRAINED. I feel like I should be bigger for someone of intermediate strength.

    My best guesses are:
    -My BF% is actually less than 17-18%
    -I'm not genetically gifted, meaning I won't ever reach 193.14 lbs of LBM which makes my calculations way off.
    -I've really only worked in the 5 rep range and this is creating problems with hypertrophy/volume of muscle.

    Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
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  2. #2
    Registered User Lvisaa2's Avatar
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    Iirc, the calculator is based on the maximum achievable for the genetic elite. You probably don't fit that criteria. Also, without any knowledge of your real diet precision and training then everything would be meaningless speculation, but to have 157 lbm at that height and 2 1/2 years training suggests that there is something with your routine, diet, or physically.
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    Registered User mattmartin87's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Iirc, the calculator is based on the maximum achievable for the genetic elite. You probably don't fit that criteria. Also, without any knowledge of your real diet precision and training then everything would be meaningless speculation, but to have 157 lbm at that height and 2 1/2 years training suggests that there is something with your routine, diet, or physically.
    It doesn't make sense that I could have reached intermediate with that little of LMB at my height.

    Maybe it's possible and I'm ignorant of the fact.
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    Registered User Lvisaa2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mattmartin87 View Post
    It doesn't make sense that I could have reached intermediate with that little of LMB at my height.

    Maybe it's possible and I'm ignorant of the fact.
    Why doesn't it make sense? Strength doesn't entail muscle gains. Hence why you can gain strength while losing weight.

    Also without numbers and videos then who knows if you're truly at an intermediate strength level. And a pure strength routine, such as SS, has tons of hypertrophy faults, IMO, and would result in decent strength without a great muscle base. But again, you've given nothing to work with except basic numbers and measurements then said it didn't make sense.
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Why doesn't it make sense? Strength doesn't entail muscle gains. Hence why you can gain strength while losing weight.

    Also without numbers and videos then who knows if you're truly at an intermediate strength level. And a pure strength routine, such as SS, has tons of hypertrophy faults, IMO, and would result in decent strength without a great muscle base. But again, you've given nothing to work with except basic numbers and measurements then said it didn't make sense.
    I was ignorant and accept that.

    It was my understanding that strength was related to size, for the most part at least.

    Lifts at 190 lbs:
    Deadlift: 305x5
    Backs Squats: 255x5
    Bench: 200x5
    Military Press: 135x5

    I don't have videos but I feel pretty confident about my form.

    I have pretty much only followed SS and began Mad Cow Bill Starr 5x5.

    Will post a pic or two later since I can't link to my BF% thread and I'm on my phone now.

    Thanks for the feedback. It all helps.
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    Originally Posted by mattmartin87 View Post
    I was ignorant and accept that.

    It was my understanding that strength was related to size, for the most part at least.

    Lifts at 190 lbs:
    Deadlift: 305x5
    Backs Squats: 255x5
    Bench: 200x5
    Military Press: 135x5

    I don't have videos but I feel pretty confident about my form.

    I have pretty much only followed SS and began Mad Cow Bill Starr 5x5.

    Will post a pic or two later since I can't link to my BF% thread and I'm on my phone now.

    Thanks for the feedback. It all helps.
    Strength is related to size, but strength gains do not necessitate hypertrophy gains. I don't know where you got that those lifts are intermediate, but I'd still consider those towards the novice end at 190.

    Also, like I said, IMO, SS is a strength only program. It is poorly designed for hypertrophy or even mixed strength/hypertrophy goals.
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by mattmartin87 View Post
    I was ignorant and accept that.

    It was my understanding that strength was related to size, for the most part at least.

    Lifts at 190 lbs:
    Deadlift: 305x5
    Backs Squats: 255x5
    Bench: 200x5
    Military Press: 135x5

    I don't have videos but I feel pretty confident about my form.

    I have pretty much only followed SS and began Mad Cow Bill Starr 5x5.

    Will post a pic or two later since I can't link to my BF% thread and I'm on my phone now.

    Thanks for the feedback. It all helps.
    nothing wrong with those lifts at all but they are definitely beginner numbers if you are just looking at strength in general
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  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by mattmartin87 View Post
    I have reached intermediate strength levels (Exrx), been lifting for 2.5 years
    The strength chart on EXRX is pretty meh. Reaching the intermediate level after 2.5 years based off of that chart is slowish progress. Some people do get huge off of Madcow's and SS but you may not be one of them. You simply may need a different stimulus, more volume, less frequency, and/or a plethora of other things. If size is your goal but you care about strength then find a routine that has "strength" as the foundation but supplements with BBing stuff. There's Westside for Skinny Bastards, 5/3/1 Bodybuilding-esque templates, Lyle's General Bulking Routine, etc. and they are all based around a main exercise that is 1-6 reps.
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    you weren't training for maximal hypertrophy but are wondering why you don't have as much muscle tissue accrued as predicted? wut
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    Originally Posted by greekmanman View Post
    you weren't training for maximal hypertrophy but are wondering why you don't have as much muscle tissue accrued as predicted? wut
    Not to mention 2.5 years on legit programs and those numbers still suggest to me that something isn't adding up
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Not to mention 2.5 years on legit programs and those numbers still suggest to me that something isn't adding up
    yea, Casey Butt's estimations assume you are doing everything pretty much correctly from the start.

    I actually read the ebook yesterday
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    Thanks for all the replies. The main thing I didn't understand was whether you could use his calculator to approximate LBM of someone who had never touched a weight in their life. One calculator provides a theoretical max LMB. A separate calculator estimates how much muscle you can add in your life, essentially. With that information, it made sense to me that you could deduce a starting LBM.

    Yes, the max value is only for the genetic elite, but I believe Casey stated somewhere that most trainees can achieve at least 90% of those values eventually.

    Am I wrong for thinking that there is a way to at least semi accurately predict completely untrained LBM given his two calculators?
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Not to mention 2.5 years on legit programs and those numbers still suggest to me that something isn't adding up
    Some people just aren't born to lift, gain all that much muscle, have to work significantly more and/or harder. Such are genetics and there are plenty of people in the gene pool who get the genetic shaft (assuming all else is equal outside of genes).

    Originally Posted by mattmartin87 View Post
    Yes, the max value is only for the genetic elite, but I believe Casey stated somewhere that most trainees can achieve at least 90% of those values eventually.

    Am I wrong for thinking that there is a way to at least semi accurately predict completely untrained LBM given his two calculators?
    Casey's formula is based on bone structure, so one's training age is completely irrelevant. Use it as a baseline and that's that. If 193lbs LBM is your max genetic potential if you're elite then that's that.
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    [QUOTE=PerpetualMotion;1070447751]Some people just aren't born to lift, gain all that much muscle, have to work significantly more and/or harder. Such are genetics and there are plenty of people in the gene pool who get the genetic shaft (assuming all else is equal outside of genes).


    This is unfortunately true you can greatly improve on what you have. But for the vast majority 18" guns and single digit bodyfat is rarely gonna happen.
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    Originally Posted by PerpetualMotion View Post

    Casey's formula is based on bone structure, so one's training age is completely irrelevant. Use it as a baseline and that's that. If 193lbs LBM is your max genetic potential if you're elite then that's that.
    Casey has another formula for estimating the rate of drug-free muscle growth (from weightrainer(dot)blogspot(dot)se/2009/09/rate-of-drug-free-muscle-gain(dot)html)

    "muscle gain in one year = 0.3 wrist^2 0.5^(no. of years training - 1)"

    If you continue this out over the course of many years (>10), you see a number approaching just under 27.5 lbs of LBM.

    I was hoping that using this number with the "Max LMB" number was a way to estimate a starting point of LBM, within reason since I believe I read that most people can achieve at least 90% of his predicted max. I need to find the exact quote.

    This seems to be an exercise in futility though, based on what you guys have said.

    Regardless, I'm going to continue training my ass off and let the chips fall where they may.
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    Originally Posted by mattmartin87 View Post
    Regardless, I'm going to continue training my ass off and let the chips fall where they may.
    Good man. Can't change the other crap, but you can make sure your diet and training are on point.
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    "In reality, it will take years of dedicated, productive training for most genetically typical trainees to even approach these predictions. Most people, including champions, will never achieve this level of development throughout all of their muscle groups - and measurements taken at higher body fat levels do not reflect true muscular development. If you reach 95% of most of these predictions - in lean condition - you will stand out in almost any gym. In fact, 95% represents good lifetime goals for most genetically typical, drug-free trainees. At a lean 90% you'd look like a fitness model."

    www(dot)weightrainer(dot)net/potential(dot)html

    It seems 95% was the number I was remembering for the genetic average. Even genetically disadvantaged people, I'd think, could reach 85-90% of his predictions in their lifetime.
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    Originally Posted by mattmartin87 View Post
    It seems 95% was the number I was remembering for the genetic average. Even genetically disadvantaged people, I'd think, could reach 85-90% of his predictions in their lifetime.
    It takes forever, though, and the rate of muscle gain drastically drops after 2 years of good training and bulking. A really solid, natty physique takes a lot of time, especially in the advanced stages, and most natties will be lifting 10+ years before getting really, really close to their genetic potential, kind of like Layne and he's been lifting 15 years or so. Matt Ogus has been lifting for almost 7 years and he has an awesome natty physique, so I've set a don't-look-****ty-after-5-years goal.
    Go back?" he thought. "No good at all! Go sideways? Impossible! Go forward? Only thing to do! On we go!" So up he got, and trotted along with his little sword held in front of him and one hand feeling the wall, and his heart all of a patter and a pitter.
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    Pictures

    I'm finally back.

    I uploaded some pics so you guys could decide whether or not I was sitting at 17-18% BF, which was an assumption that I made during initial calculations.

    Bi and Abs.jpg
    Back Spread.jpg
    Tri.jpg
    Abs.jpg
    Quad.jpg
    Self Back Double Bi.jpg

    What do you think?
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    How have things been?
    Started 2012 at over 410lbs (that was as high as my scale went) and I ended the year at 260lbs.

    Still going strong while eating whatever I want - whenever I want; I just keep it to under 2000 calories a day.

    TEAM IIFYC (if it fits your calories)
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    Accessorizing wit my reps gymjunki3's Avatar
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    great thread, I just don’t know why so many people on this site recommend SS, Madcows, Allpro's, SL 5x5 when they are all strength programs.
    Noobs come online saying they want to put on size and every tom, dick n harry recommends the above mentioned programs.
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    Originally Posted by gymjunki3 View Post
    great thread, I just don’t know why so many people on this site recommend SS, Madcows, Allpro's, SL 5x5 when they are all strength programs.
    Noobs come online saying they want to put on size and every tom, dick n harry recommends the above mentioned programs.
    Their belief is that progression is what leads to adding strength which leads to hypertrophy.
    Started 2012 at over 410lbs (that was as high as my scale went) and I ended the year at 260lbs.

    Still going strong while eating whatever I want - whenever I want; I just keep it to under 2000 calories a day.

    TEAM IIFYC (if it fits your calories)
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  23. #23
    Registered User Lvisaa2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by unleashthelion View Post
    Their belief is that progression is what leads to adding strength which leads to hypertrophy.
    Strength enables one to continue their overload mechanism, but a purely strength focused routine does not allow for proper development or a high enough workload to stimulate enough growth
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Strength enables one to continue their overload mechanism, but a purely strength focused routine does not allow for proper development or a high enough workload to stimulate enough growth
    if only i knew this 2 years ago.
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Strength enables one to continue their overload mechanism, but a purely strength focused routine does not allow for proper development or a high enough workload to stimulate enough growth
    so how much volume is actually needed per bodypart to stimulate enough growth?
    everything i have read says about 60-100 reps per week
    a program like stronglifts gets 75 reps for legs, 75 triceps,50 or 25 for delts/pecs/back
    so it should provide enough for legs but is borderline for upperbody and greatly lagging for biceps

    also i know the way i am looking at it doesnt relate entirely
    depending on a persons proportions will determine the overall effectiveness of certain compounds
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Iirc, the calculator is based on the maximum achievable for the genetic elite. You probably don't fit that criteria. Also, without any knowledge of your real diet precision and training then everything would be meaningless speculation, but to have 157 lbm at that height and 2 1/2 years training suggests that there is something with your routine, diet, or physically.
    Everyone tosses the term Genetic Elite to excuse their own lack of progress from poor training,lack of rest,dont know what hes doing etc etc.
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