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  1. #1
    Registered User mpe488's Avatar
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    Good Carbs vs. Bad Carbs

    Realistically, what are the advantages of eating good carbs over bad carbs? Don't hey really do the same thing?
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    well the only thing i would consider bad carbs are carbs with absolutely zero nutrional value, so...


    are carbs with a lot of fiber and nutrients the same thing as carbs that are empty calories? no.
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    Carbs from whole foods contain plenty of fiber... dextrose, maltodextrin, table sugar, syrup and others don't. Most whole food sources also contain vitamins and minerals that aren't in 'bad' carb sources.

    But in terms of body composition... negligible effects.
    Food quality does not change the laws of thermodynamics. Provided you consume adequate protein, EFAs, fiber, and vitamins and minerals you can eat whatever you want.

    The only difference between a 'clean' and a 'dirty' food is how much of it you eat.

    The Glycemic Index is meaningless unless you eat carbs alone in a fasted state. As soon as you add fat, protein, or fiber to a meal or have eaten in the previous 4-6 hours the GI is irrelevant.
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    Registered User mpe488's Avatar
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    What I'm asking is, aren't they both used for energy anyway, sure they're not as 'healthy' but I'm 20 and I just had a comprehensive blood test done and I passed every category with flying colors so I'm not worried about health...

    Common knowledge seems to say that bad carbs will make you more fat than good carbs, but they have the same amount of calories (4/gram) so is there any scientific evidence that supports the hypothesis that french toast sticks and syrup is going to make me more fat than an equivalent amount of oats- even though they have the same amount of calories.

    And please don't say "of course you moron, are you 6?" I want to hear from someone that knows more about nutrition than I do.
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    Originally Posted by mpe488 View Post
    What I'm asking is, aren't they both used for energy anyway, sure they're not as 'healthy' but I'm 20 and I just had a comprehensive blood test done and I passed every category with flying colors so I'm not worried about health...
    This thread then seems a bit odd if you are not worried at all....
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    Originally Posted by mpe488 View Post
    What I'm asking is, aren't they both used for energy anyway, sure they're not as 'healthy' but I'm 20 and I just had a comprehensive blood test done and I passed every category with flying colors so I'm not worried about health...

    Common knowledge seems to say that bad carbs will make you more fat than good carbs, but they have the same amount of calories (4/gram) so is there any scientific evidence that supports the hypothesis that french toast sticks and syrup is going to make me more fat than an equivalent amount of oats- even though they have the same amount of calories.

    And please don't say "of course you moron, are you 6?" I want to hear from someone that knows more about nutrition than I do.
    At the end of the day what matters most is calories in vs. calories out. You may have more energy eating better foods or feel better, but calorie quality does not change the law of thermodynamics. As long as you get appropriate amounts of EFAs, protein, and fiber (as well as micronutrients) you can pretty much eat whatever you want.

    There are certain exceptions - trans fats and high fructose corn syrup can screw with your insulin sensitivity among other things, thus I would avoid those two as much as possible.

    Enjoy your french toast sticks.
    Food quality does not change the laws of thermodynamics. Provided you consume adequate protein, EFAs, fiber, and vitamins and minerals you can eat whatever you want.

    The only difference between a 'clean' and a 'dirty' food is how much of it you eat.

    The Glycemic Index is meaningless unless you eat carbs alone in a fasted state. As soon as you add fat, protein, or fiber to a meal or have eaten in the previous 4-6 hours the GI is irrelevant.
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    i would rather eat a cup of oats with splenda and cinnamon to get 48 grams of carbs (not even counting the other benefits of it) than 12 teaspoons of sugar.....
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    If this helps (and to keep things simple), think of it like casein (~ good carbs) vs. whey protein (~ bad carbs). Also, I want to be a little more specific and pedantic here... "bad carbs" = high GI foods, "good carbs" = low GI foods. Continuing on with the analogy, high GI foods result in a sharp insulin spike; low GI foods result in a more sustained, shallow insulin spike. A sharp insulin spike is caused by a sudden surge of blood sugar, which, in turn, is caused by a sudden surge of sugar uptaken by the intestine. What causes this surge are foods with high GIs... foods that are low fat, low protein, low fibre, finely ground, highly refined, high glucose, and highly water-saturated. Simply, these are carbs/foods that are easily digested.

    What the h*ll does it all mean? Insulin is a hormone that is vital to a cell's uptake of sugar (and the uptake of a whole lot of other things, e.g. creatine, protein, fat; and it is also important in several other ways, including inducing the feeling of satiety [fullness])... it is released in response to the ingesting of sugar. A sharp insulin spike, for reasons not worth expanding on, most of the time leads to fat gain and diabetes mellitus, among other such bad things. However, there are times when a sharp insulin spike is beneficial... and this is especially important for bodybuilders. When your body is starving for fuel (its ideal fuel is, believe it or not, "sugar" [in the form of glucose]), it will go into catabolism and start searching for whatever the h*ll it can find to get some. Firstly, (by release of glucagon---insulin's complete opposite [or antagonist] "brother") it will mop up any available free sugar or glycogen, then fat, then protein (i.e. muscle)... these do not happen consecutively; there is some overlap. Ultimately, this means no protein or raw energy for building muscle and perhaps even some muscle breakdown. You don't want either of those two evils. That is why you want those starving muscle cells to quickly become saturated with glucose, and, thus, you want a sharp insulin spike. Not only will this provide your muscle cells with the basic energy required for function, growth, and repair, but it also enhances the uptake of creatine and protein, two supplements that you might/should be using.

    Hopefully that is at least somewhat understandable... I am a fourth-year medical science student, so I do sometimes forget/don't realize that I am speaking a little too jargonistically (if that is a word) for commonfolk. I'd gladly clarify if you have any questions... and hopefully what I rambled on about isn't just broscience.

    Reviewing my post, I guess I didn't really build on my whey vs casein analogy. Whey is quickly digested, just like high GI (or "sugary") foods. You want to take whey post-workout, just like you want high GI foods postworkout. And you want whey and high GI foods (and low GI foods---to carry you through the day) in the morning because your muscles are in a similar "starving" state as they are PWO. Casein, on the other hand, is like low GI foods: slowly digested and ideal for times any other time than PWO.
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    When I eat Oatmeal in morning I feel energized for the rest of the day
    When I eat Fruit Loops/Pancakes in the morning I get an initial boost of energy and then just suddenly feel tired and feel like taking a nap.
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    Originally Posted by highhopes1580 View Post

    Reviewing my post, I guess I didn't really build on my whey vs casein analogy. Whey is quickly digested, just like high GI (or "sugary") foods. You want to take whey post-workout, just like you want high GI foods postworkout. And you want whey and high GI foods (and low GI foods---to carry you through the day) in the morning because your muscles are in a similar "starving" state as they are PWO. Casein, on the other hand, is like low GI foods: slowly digested and ideal for times any other time than PWO.

    So it's good to eat high GI foods 1st thing apon wake up? I always eat whole wheat bread or oats with my eggs/milk 1st thing. I guess Whey and Simple carb is ideal then maybe 1/2 hour later eat the WW bread and eggs?? right?
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    Science >>>>> Broscience highhopes1580's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pengh View Post
    So it's good to eat high GI foods 1st thing apon wake up? I always eat whole wheat bread or oats with my eggs/milk 1st thing. I guess Whey and Simple carb is ideal then maybe 1/2 hour later eat the WW bread and eggs?? right?
    In theory, yes. I don't know how that floats in practice. I'd think you'd want a nice mixture of high and low GI foods in the morning. High GI foods to kick your body out of starvation and low GI foods to give you the energy to "get through the day" (or to the next meal, I should say).

    Believe it or not, but your common whole wheat bread is not exactly low GI. It is so finely ground that it has a mid GI. It does have a lot of other nutrients (compared to white bread), however, and it still has a lower GI than white bread. Slap on some peanut butter (which is high in [good] fat), and you will further decrease its GI.
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    yeah alot of whole wheat bread at delis and subway is crap. I buy 100% whole wheat bread... cool thanks
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    Cool

    More crap in this section and this thread delivers a lot of it on its own.
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    too late, no friends deejaykaydee's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by -Aaron- View Post
    More crap in this section and this thread delivers a lot of it on its own.
    I knew you would show up!

    My view on this topic:
    If you want to gain weight or lose weight - eat whatever but count your calories

    If you want to be the mayor of healthyville while gaining or losing weight - eat "clean" while counting your calories.
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    Surgeon By 2012 or Bust! -Aaron-'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by deejaykaydee View Post
    I knew you would show up!

    My view on this topic:
    If you want to gain weight or lose weight - eat whatever but count your calories

    If you want to be the mayor of healthyville while gaining or losing weight - eat "clean" while counting your calories.
    That's the best advice I've seen today, which could be a good or bad thing.
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    Originally Posted by deejaykaydee View Post
    I knew you would show up!

    My view on this topic:
    If you want to gain weight or lose weight - eat whatever but count your calories

    If you want to be the mayor of healthyville while gaining or losing weight - eat "clean" while counting your calories.
    I think that's obvious. If you want to "gain weight" eat whatever. There's a difference between eating clean and eating like ****, I don't care what anyone says. If you want to get big eat alot of clean food and you'll see lean gains and you won't look all bloated up from all that sodium. I don't think Arnold was eating chips and chugging down coke to get ready for contest. Now I bet someone is going to say well their bodybuilders, we're just the "casual lifters". Sorry some people have goals and want to get big, not make minimal changes from a year to year basis.
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    Originally Posted by pengh View Post
    yeah alot of whole wheat bread at delis and subway is crap. I buy 100% whole wheat bread... cool thanks
    Actually, what I meant was the 100% whole wheat bread you buy in grocery stores. Remember there is more to GI than simply glucose-ness and lack of refinement. Although 100% whole wheat bread is not refined (as in blanched), it is still made from flour, so the final product is fairly finely ground up. The finer the grind, the higher the GI.

    I'm strongly considering getting a bread maker so I can make my own low GI bread (I'm not a big fan of oatmeal or rice, so I need some food other than pasta to get my complex carbs). It would probably pay itself off after awhile (I eat a lot of bread, and you can make your own bread at a fraction of the cost of what you pay for it in the grocery store).
    Last edited by highhopes1580; 09-22-2008 at 02:00 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Makaveli0 View Post
    I think that's obvious. If you want to "gain weight" eat whatever. There's a difference between eating clean and eating like ****, I don't care what anyone says. If you want to get big eat alot of clean food and you'll see lean gains and you won't look all bloated up from all that sodium. I don't think Arnold was eating chips and chugging down coke to get ready for contest. Now I bet someone is going to say well their bodybuilders, we're just the "casual lifters". Sorry some people have goals and want to get big, not make minimal changes from a year to year basis.
    You'll also see results more quickly if you also bring into play nutrient timing. There is more to it than simply getting your daily macros... your body doesn't at the end of the day calculate it all and say, "OK, I've got all my macros for the day, I can grow." It doesn't work on a day-to-day basis; it works on a nanosecond-to-nanosecond basis.
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    I believe this shouldn't be a good vs bad carb thread. It should be a when to eat certain kind of carbs thread. Now yes there is bad carbs but theres a time that they can be digested.
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    Originally Posted by AWD_TURBO View Post
    I believe this shouldn't be a good vs bad carb thread. It should be a when to eat certain kind of carbs thread. Now yes there is bad carbs but theres a time that they can be digested.
    It is for that reason that I prefer to call them low and high GI foods. Depending on the timing, "bad" and "good" could be misnomers.
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    I totally agree. nutrition timing is key. not what is clean and unclean.
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    Good carbs adequately and positively address 1) Insulin Balance and 2) Nutrition. Bad carbs cause your insulin levels to swing, and provide no nutrition. If given the choice, of course one should go with good (complex) carbs like oats, potatoes, etc. But, it all comes down to calories in vs. out.

    If your body requires 2500 calories a day and you only eat 1800 calories a day from jelly beans, you will still lose WEIGHT. Now, what that weight is composed of will be a different story...lol.
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    But spiking your insulin also promotes protein and creatine synthesis. Thus people lifting weights should consume about 100g of simple carbs immediately pwo before protein shake.
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    FWIW I posted a thread a month or so ago asking for a defined, medical/scientific definition of the infamous "insulin spike" and, to my recollection, none could be provided.

    In other words, apparently no one knows what it is to the point of being able to literally define it within the confines of body chemistry.
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    This thread is full of crap... too much to address really.

    Oh well. I guess the ED kids can go eat their oats and egg whites now.
    Food quality does not change the laws of thermodynamics. Provided you consume adequate protein, EFAs, fiber, and vitamins and minerals you can eat whatever you want.

    The only difference between a 'clean' and a 'dirty' food is how much of it you eat.

    The Glycemic Index is meaningless unless you eat carbs alone in a fasted state. As soon as you add fat, protein, or fiber to a meal or have eaten in the previous 4-6 hours the GI is irrelevant.
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    Originally Posted by BuckSpin View Post
    FWIW I posted a thread a month or so ago asking for a defined, medical/scientific definition of the infamous "insulin spike" and, to my recollection, none could be provided.

    In other words, apparently no one knows what it is to the point of being able to literally define it within the confines of body chemistry.
    Good point... I fear it falls on deaf ears.

    "But Jay only uses the simple sugars post workout, he doesn't want to spike insulin throughout the day."
    Food quality does not change the laws of thermodynamics. Provided you consume adequate protein, EFAs, fiber, and vitamins and minerals you can eat whatever you want.

    The only difference between a 'clean' and a 'dirty' food is how much of it you eat.

    The Glycemic Index is meaningless unless you eat carbs alone in a fasted state. As soon as you add fat, protein, or fiber to a meal or have eaten in the previous 4-6 hours the GI is irrelevant.
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    Originally Posted by BuckSpin View Post
    FWIW I posted a thread a month or so ago asking for a defined, medical/scientific definition of the infamous "insulin spike" and, to my recollection, none could be provided.

    In other words, apparently no one knows what it is to the point of being able to literally define it within the confines of body chemistry.
    What needs to be defined?

    Following a sudden increase in blood glucose (due to ingestion of glucose in any form), your body responds by releasing insulin. There is a time-dependent, proportional relationship between increase in blood glucose and increase in insulin release. That is, if your blood glucose (which is normally at about 5-6 mmol/L) within a short time (a few minutes; therefore, after eating a high GI food) rises to 9 mmol/L, then your pancreas will release a lot of insulin in a correspondingly short time. When in graphic form, this looks like a spike. In the attached graph, the black line is an insulin spike (the type you would see in a non-diabetic following a high GI meal). Although the gray line was not intended to depict the insulin "spike" you would see in a non-diabetic following a LOW GI meal, that is what you would see in that situation.

    When you have that sharp spike, you have a quick flooding of cells with insulin and a subsequent quick flooding of cells with glucose. However, that peak does not last long (a few minutes), and your cells don't require all that glucose in such a short period of time. If your cells could talk they would say, "I don't need all this sugar right now, so why are you causing all this glucose to flood into me?" Through several cellular mechanisms (if you want me to be extremely specific, through tyrosine kinase receptor desensitization), the cell responds by reducing its responsiveness to insulin. This ultimately leads to fat gain and diabetes mellitus.
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    Thanks! What study/text is that from, please?
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    A carbohydrate is really just a CH20 molecule ( talking about a general, unaltered monosaccharide). The Molecule is not a sentient being, and cannot be "good" or "bad".

    But, I guess if you're a diabetic then too much sugar could be bad for YOU. Then again, that's not the carbohydrate's fault.
    Last edited by realitysfringe; 09-22-2008 at 03:08 PM.
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    Originally Posted by realitysfringe View Post
    A carbohydrate is really just a CH20 molecule ( talking about a general, unaltered monosaccharide). The Molecule is not a sentient being, and cannot be "good" or "bad".

    But, I guess if you're a diabetic then too much sugar could be bad for YOU. Then again, that's not the carbohydrate's fault.
    Great post.
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